Reply To: Three days eating and davening, why

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#976573
Avram in MD
Participant

OhTeeDee,

whether the calendar is fixed or not the concept that it may or may not be yuntiff *today* makes it all seem arbitrary.

I don’t see it as arbitrary at all. The date of Yom Tov was set by the Sanhedrin once the length of the previous month was determined (either 29 or 30 days). Therefore each festival had a fixed date. Whether people observed one or both possible days depending on where they lived makes no difference to the actual date and length of the festival.

Unlike Shabbos, whose dates are fixed by Hashem, the festivals were given to us to set within a framework (briefly, the first month must come in spring time, the Pesach is offered on the 14th of that month, the festival of matzos then follows from the 15th to 21st, Shavuous is 50 days after the morrow of the rest of that festival, Rosh Hashana on the 1st of the 7th month, Y”K on the 10th, Sukkos on the 15-21st, Shemini Atzeres on the 22nd. Other than that (and telling us in last week’s parsha that we should use the sun, moon, and stars to set our calendar), we have a say in how it’s done. It may seem a bit disconcerting, but Hashem bestowed our people with holiness through these festivals, and we actually have the ability to make the days holy. That’s why the Yom Tov bracha days “mikadesh Yisroel v’hazmanim” – Hashem makes Yisroel holy, and Yisroel makes the zmanim holy.

The fact specifically that today there is no safeik at all (and when there was did people really fast 2 days for yom kippur) AND no mechanism in place to acknowledge that the 2 day yuntiff “doesn’t apply” anymore.

You seem to be assuming that the reason we still observe both possible Yom Yov days in the diaspora is because there was no mechanism to overturn the previous ruling. I don’t think that is the case. The later sages chose to continue the practice because they didn’t see the problem in simply utilitarian terms. In other words, the uncertainty of when Tom Tov fell was caused because of a deficiency (living in the diaspora), so even though the calendar is fixed, at the end of the day, living in the diaspora is still a deficiency.

In terms of the moment in time when it did apply, the sages who created an “8th day” even for those in diaspora who cannot get the news of rosh chodesh – i believe were doing so in direct objection to the (perfect) Torah.

Nobody created an 8th day. We observe the last date of Pesach on 21 Nissan due to the 7 day festival that started on the 15th – we just assume that the 1st of the month could have been either 30 or 31 days after the start of the previous month. If you are considering yourself to be observing an 8th day of Pesach, then you are not looking at the halacha correctly. In Sukkos mussaf, we recite the offerings for the first day of the festival on both the first two days of observed Yom Tov, because we treat each day as if it could be Yom Tov. In the diaspora on the “3rd” day (after the two day Yom Tov), we recite the offerings for both the 2nd and 3rd days of the festival. Nothing new is being added.

In the simplest form, you cannot say that due to logistics Hashem really wants X even though he said Y! If anything it proves that the Torah, in its time wasn’t scalable to a global world.

The Torah is perfect, but it was never intended to be scalable to the globe. Hashem gave us the Torah and intended for us to live in Eretz Yisroel. Therefore, the halachos are designed for that area. Outside of Eretz Yisroel, many mitzvos lose their applicability. In Eretz Yisroel, grain harvesting is possible at Pesach time, and Jews are obligated to bring an omer offering. In Russia, however, crops are barely out of dormancy. The Torah was not written with Russia in mind. On Shemini Atzeres we daven for rain, but for Jews in Florida, the onset of the dry season begins a month or two later. The Torah was not written with Florida in mind. Hashem wants us to live in Eretz Yisroel, but due to our aveiros, we were exiled and now live in lands “out of sync” with our holy Torah. Having to observe both possible days that Yom Tov can fall out is just one manifestation of this imbalance in the system. Don’t blame the Torah, blame the exile.

The idea that “we would all be amish” is something I chuckle about, since essentially we ARE amish on shabbos and yuntiff.

Huh? I suddenly use no electricity (no lights left on, no timers, no A/C, no Shabbos alarm clock, no blech on an electric stove, no electric urn) on Shabbos, and trade my car in for a horse and buggy (which we don’t use on Shabbos either)? Your comment makes no sense to me. I think a hard-core Amish person witnessing Shabbos observance would say it looked and felt very different from his lifestyle.

There was never anything prohibiting the use of technology as the amish did

That wasn’t quite my point. You implied that halacha freeze-framed in the 19th Century. If that was the case, then there would have been no way for halacha to deal with technology on Shabbos.

but there is a certain resistance to using it, within the confines of halacha, on shabbos. For example putting a light on, which i believe falls under the av of boneh but couldnt possibly be anything close to what boneh IS (or was in the mishkan). This is the understanding and application of a halacha that let’s face it, has NO precedent in jewish history/law (how could it. times change and not everything could be covered). so has halacha “dealt” with this or just outlawed it for lack of understanding?

I think you may have it backwards. Early treatment of electric devices tended to permit them, but once greater knowledge of how those devices worked, then they became forbidden. It actually was the increased understanding that led to the restrictions, not a lack.

What’s interesting to me is that the sages forbade the use of electrical devices on Shabbos – which seems silly to you because the melachos deal with things like hammering and sewing. But Hashem tells me to not work on Shabbos, and in my job I do not hammer or sew – I use electronic devices. Through remote connectivity, I can stay home and work a full day without doing anything but interact with electronic devices – so thank G-d they are forbidden on Shabbos!

Re: fridges, I honestly do not know how it is muttar to open one on shabbos. It is 40 degrees in there and 72 degrees in the room. you open the fridge, 20 seconds later the thing kicks on. You walk into a room with central air. by definition your presence warms the air, miniscule as that may be. the AC kicks on. Is this any better than turning on a light?

Discuss this with a rabbi. It’s not like they didn’t think of any of this!