- This topic has 32 replies, 20 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 2 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
How about coming on aliya where you do not have three days
of davening and eating except once in a while on Rosh Hashana.
The chagim are not meant to be a burden rather it is a time to visit family and friends. Without question the mothers and wives enjoy life more.
Aliya, try it. Enjoy being frum!
Menachos 65a (loose translation).
The Baisusim said that Shevuos was [just] after Shabbos. Rabban Yochanan Ben Zakai got involved and said to them “Fools, what is your source?”, and no one answered him except for one elder who answered “Moshe Rabainu was an Ohev Yisroel and knew that Shavuos was only one day, so he made it after Shabbos so the Jews could enjoy for two days”…
Even the Baisusim knew that the more Yom Tov the better (and Rabban Yochanan ben Zakai doesn’t contest that point). Not my ha’ara, but I wish it were.
So which part of davening and eating don’t you like? The davening or the eating? The only hard part of a three-day Yom Tov is ending it.
And does your wife/mother prefer cooking on Friday for Shabbos to just having Friday off?
lol worst zionist ad ever
this is the way it is going to be leasid lavoe just sitting and enjoying the splendor of the scheina without the burden(as you say) of cell phones, texting , computers,internet,just sitting learning davening eating and drinking “ki zeh kol haadam” get your priorities straight yiddishkeit is far from a burden
No, Chagim are not meant as a time to visit family and friends. It’s a time to get closer to Hashem. Rosh HaShanah, Yom Kippur, and Sukkos are all just a build-up so we can rejoice together with Hashem and the Torah on Simchas Torah!
And what’s so bad with eating and davening l’shem mitzvah?
Yes, living in Eretz Yisroel is a mitzvah, a great mitzvah. A great privilege, an opportunity to do more mitzvhos, an honor to be living in HaShem’s palace.
But we’re not moving there just to do away with out three day Yom Tov experience. It’s a experience, not a burden. It’s our chance to be totally disconnected from the mundane, just us and the Ribono Shel Olam. No, not a burden at all.
And, sorry to say, sometimes it’s a bit easier enjoying being frum, leider, in chutz la’aretz. (where else do signs on the bus say “Warning – on this bus you must sit where you want. Anyone who sits where they don’t want faces criminal charges..”) Nothing chas v’sholom against our holy land, it’s the status of things there currently a secular people have against us…
Yitzhak
Davening is talking to Hashem. You live in Hashems back yard and can’t stand talking to him?!
“And, sorry to say, sometimes it’s a bit easier enjoying being frum, leider, in chutz la’aretz. (where else do signs on the bus say ‘Warning – on this bus you must sit where you want. Anyone who sits where they don’t want faces criminal charges..’) Nothing chas v’sholom against our holy land, it’s the status of things there currently a secular people have against us…”
My husband and I take buses throughout Israel frequently and have never seen such signs.
Three days of chag results in at least one day of not wearing t’fillin (or two, if you wear them during chol hamoed), as well as having of scrambling the chol hamoed torah readings.
Nothing chas v’sholom against our holy land, it’s the status of things there currently a secular people have against us…
Funny, this sounds like the 10 m’raglim . . .
I agree with squeak – that is the worst aliyah ad ever! 😀
takahmamash, I don’t get your tefillin argument. In EY, (almost) nobody wears tefillin during Chol Hamoed. So in Ch”L, those of us who do wear tefillin wear them three or four more days than we would in EY.
I think having a second Seder is a major advantage of living in Ch”L. I’m usually too tired the first night to give it its due.
takahmamash:
I specifically wrote we have chas v’sholom nothing against our holy land, only the high set regard. It’s the not-yet-frum who are making it hard. Why is that like the meraglim?!?
jewishfeminist02:
I have been on some and seen them. OK, it’s not worded EXACTLY how I put it (I did it for extra effect), signs read something like “Warning seating on this bus is to everyone’s choice. Anyone requesting another passenger to relocate faces criminal charges”. Sorry. I have not seen anything of that sort in the United Colonies. Or elsewhere.
yehudayona, I’m the opposite– I’m full of energy the first night, but way too exhausted the second night to go through the whole thing again with adequate enthusiasm!
The idea of yomtov shaini b’chutz la’aretz is something that I could never understand (not because it wasn’t explained) 🙂
I mean, there is no safek yom anymore, this we know. And there are more serious implications than simply those of convenience (or inconvenience). For example, the torah specifically says that succos is an 8 day holiday, so next friday A. why aren’t you oiver on baal toisif? and B. Shouldn’t you be putting on tfillin? C. Shouldn’t you be doing hakafos (the real ones) on Thursday
We don’t have a Sanhedrin standing nowadays. Only an authoritative Sanhedrin can do something like abrogate yom tov sheni in chutz la aretz.
The fact that there is no mechanism in place to change things (that seemingly no longer apply/make sense) doesn’t seem like a problem with the system?
The reason I bring this up is something I have grappled with my rebbeim about this. for 2500 years there were tannaim/amoraim/rishonim tweaking halacha, most of which applies halacha li’mayseh today. Weren’t they “reforming” (i know…a very bad word 🙂 the direction of the torah.
I am not saying rejecting torah she’bal peh, all i’m saying is that if halacha is a living, breathing idea why did it stop changing (except to make life HARDER) 150 years ago?
I’m so sorry.
If chagim, Yomim Tovim are a burden to you “make life HARDER”, there’s little I can say to you, other than knowing it’s what HaShem chastised the Yidden ?????? ???????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?????.
For others I can say I’m just amazed at the ?? of the ????? to create and bring actual ????? into these days with their power. The time-frame of this ????? ????? could not have been too long at all, it’s was until our luach was instituted. Nevertheless our ???? ??????? ?????? is ever so strong, Gemarah and Halacha equate it and actually in some instances hold it more stringent than the first day. No, it is not something we want to do away with. And it is certainly not making our life harder.
We believe in HaShem, His Torah, His Mitzvhos. His Chachamim, and their Gezeros, harchakos, gerdarim, takanos. ?? ?? ????? ??? ?????.
Everything.
OhTeeDee,
I mean, there is no safek yom anymore, this we know.
So from this statement, it seems that your problem with 2 day Yom Tovs is that we now utilize a fixed calendar, so it follows that when Rosh Chodesh was declared by the Sanhedrin, you wouldn’t have objections, right?
For example, the torah specifically says that succos is an 8 day holiday
<nitpick>Actually, by the Torah Sukkos is 7 days, as we are commanded to sit in Sukkos for 7 days. The 8th day is a new Yom Tov.</nitpick>
so next friday A. why aren’t you oiver on baal toisif?
Your argument here doesn’t make sense to me, because it would also apply to the times before our calendar was fixed, and from your initial statement, you only seem to have a problem with this after the fixed calendar. Back when Rosh Chodesh was declared by the Sanhedrin, and word of the declaration may not have reached the far flung communities in time for Yom Tov, keeping “eight” days of Pesach still would have been problematic according to your argument, because the Torah commanded seven!
Pesach and Sukkos are seven day festivals. Rosh Hashana, Shavuos, and Shemini Atzeres are one day festivals. This remains true to this day, in the diaspora as well as in Eretz Yisroel. The sages who declared the months also decreed that in the diaspora, both possible days that Yom Tov could fall out based on the synodic month should be observed as Yom Tov, even though one of those days is not Yom Tov.
and B. Shouldn’t you be putting on tfillin? C. Shouldn’t you be doing hakafos (the real ones) on Thursday
The same sages who told us when to lay tefillin and to do hakafos also told us how to observe Yom Tov in the diaspora. Where’s the contradiction?
OhTeeDee,
The fact that there is no mechanism in place to change things (that seemingly no longer apply/make sense
To you?
) doesn’t seem like a problem with the system?
Observing Yom Tov over two days in the diaspora makes sense to me. So why should I believe that it should be changed?
for 2500 years there were tannaim/amoraim/rishonim tweaking halacha, most of which applies halacha li’mayseh today. Weren’t they “reforming” (i know…a very bad word 🙂 the direction of the torah.
No, not reforming. When the U.S. Supreme Court makes a ruling, in an ideal sense we do not say that they are reforming the U.S. Constitution (e.g., “hey, lets throw this clause out”). Rather, they are applying the Constitution to their case at hand. This is similar to what the sages do – they apply Torah principles to a situation in order to figure out what to do. Different sages may make different applications, but it is not reformation.
I am not saying rejecting torah she’bal peh, all i’m saying is that if halacha is a living, breathing idea why did it stop changing (except to make life HARDER) 150 years ago?
This is a false argument. Blechs on electric stovetops, hearing aids, timers, air conditioners, refrigerators, etc. did not exist 150 years ago, yet our living halacha has dealt with all of these things (mostly to make life EASIER, by the way). If halacha stopped changing 150 years ago, then we’d still be living as people did 150 years ago, like the Amish. But we don’t, because halacha does deal with changes in the world. It seems possible that your perception of a lack of halachic adaptation is not due to an actual lack of adaptation, but to your dislike of how it has adapted.
Oh Shreck, it is like the meraglim because of statements like yours, “I have nothing against our holy land BUT x, y z, and those nasty other Jews”. It is not that it is un-doable for most, it is that they don’t WANT to. As Moshe Rabenu accused the Dor Hamidbor “Velo avisem laalos, using a verb that is nearly always (two or three exceptions in all Tanach) denoting negativity.
For those allergic to three day issues, internalize that while chol is nice, kodesh is better, and more kodesh is more better. We are told to hold chag, for seven days, and indeed Sukkot is only seven days. Shmini is a seperate chag, with its own Yom Tov sheini. The sandwiching of a erev shabbos between a thursday yom tov and shabbos, is not all that easier than a three day affair, and about the three day Rosh Hashana, there are those in EY that still blame some French Olim Hadashim for that. (Chachmei Provence in the eleventh century liminyanam uprooted the local one day Rosh Hashana).
I will post more later, in response to the thoughtful responses given to my questions.
Oh Shreck!
Is there really a debate on whether yuntif is a burden though? Using all your vacation time from work (if you get paid vacation time, if not you get bubkis on those days either can lead to parnassa issues)- not to mention the women who cook, clean, deal with the kids/go to shul/rinse/repeat for 73 hours at a clip.
Come on let’s be honest here.
I will be honest. Very. I don’t have time now to properly answer you today. (today, even I am busy!! – WOW!)
A three day marathon Yom Tov can be a bit challenging. So are other mitzvhos. However, we take (and tackle) them with JOY. The old “Es iz shver tzu zein a Yid” didn’t work. What became of that generation and beyond? No – this is Zman Simchasainu. We load up (upload) on joy for the year. TRIPLE the JOY. (and fun!)
Let’s do it. WITH JOY.
A most joyous Yom Tov and year to follow, to you.
Avram in MD
“…it seems that your problem with 2 day Yom Tovs is that we now utilize a fixed calendar, so it follows that when Rosh Chodesh was declared by the Sanhedrin, you wouldn’t have objections, right?”
well, no. whether the calendar is fixed or not the concept that it may or may not be yuntiff *today* makes it all seem arbitrary. The fact specifically that today there is no safeik at all (and when there was did people really fast 2 days for yom kippur) AND no mechanism in place to acknowledge that the 2 day yuntiff “doesn’t apply” anymore.
In terms of the moment in time when it did apply, the sages who created an “8th day” even for those in diaspora who cannot get the news of rosh chodesh – i believe were doing so in direct objection to the (perfect) Torah. In the simplest form, you cannot say that due to logistics Hashem really wants X even though he said Y! If anything it proves that the Torah, in its time wasn’t scalable to a global world.
Re: your latter post, You are very correct that I have a dislike for the adaptation. I refer to reforming and you adapting, but that is semantics.
The idea that “we would all be amish” is something I chuckle about, since essentially we ARE amish on shabbos and yuntiff. There was never anything prohibiting the use of technology (well, lets leave the asifa aside) as the amish did but there is a certain resistance to using it, within the confines of halacha, on shabbos. For example putting a light on, which i believe falls under the av of boneh but couldnt possibly be anything close to what boneh IS (or was in the mishkan). This is the understanding and application of a halacha that let’s face it, has NO precedent in jewish history/law (how could it. times change and not everything could be covered). so has halacha “dealt” with this or just outlawed it for lack of understanding?
Re: fridges, I honestly do not know how it is muttar to open one on shabbos. It is 40 degrees in there and 72 degrees in the room. you open the fridge, 20 seconds later the thing kicks on. You walk into a room with central air. by definition your presence warms the air, miniscule as that may be. the AC kicks on. Is this any better than turning on a light?
Oy…i have to get ready. Have a nice yuntiff everyone 🙂
I’m looking forward to our third marathon of 3 day yontiff.
I have prepared farfel, 2 kinds of kugel, yapzik, chicken salad, potato blintzes, meatballs, bbq chicken, sweet and sour chicken, tzimmes, tomato charif (for the meat meals), and am doing dairy for 2 meals (Friday lunch and Simchas Torah dinner). A gut kvittel to all.
Oh Shreck:
Three day yomim tovim are more than “a bit challenging”. They create a significant amount of work– shopping, prep, cooking, cleanup, reheating, etc etc, and the kids are whining and need attention– and they (the chagim) can also pose a significant financial strain. This is not to say that we don’t do all of this work both gladly and willingly. We do it b’simcha. But to make light of the work we do is heartbreaking. It does indeed make our lives harder, and there would be no simchas yom tov without the work we do. Whenever I am a guest in someone’s home for shabbos or yom tov I make sure to express my appreciation to my hosts just as I express my appreciation to Hashem.
My husband and I are blessed to be in E”Y for chagim this year and are keeping only one day. I am saddened that I don’t get to experience a second set of hakafos, but I’ll confess that I don’t miss the work.
For those allergic to three day issues, internalize that while chol is nice, kodesh is better, and more kodesh is more better.
Using this as an excuse to “like” an extra day of a chag is simplistic and incorrect. Face it – Chazal developed the second day of chag for those who would not (or could not) move to E”Y. A second day was not what Hashem intended as the ideal, otherwise, two days per chag would have been mandated in the Torah.
To anyone questioning the fixed calender issue, two points –
1) They pointed out to us in Yeshiva once that in places like the Soviet Union where Judaism was illegal and the majority of it eradicated, it was actually extremely difficult if not impossible to get a copy of that years calendar. In such a case there could be a real suffik as to when Yom tov is supposed to occur, so while it is somewhat difficult for us to conceive of, these type of problems do still occur from time to time in the modern era.
2) I don’t know the source off hand but if anyone is interested let me know and I will find out for you, but it’s brought that a deeper reason for 2nd day Yom Tov in Chu”l is that the kedusha of Eretz Yisrael is so much higher than everywhere else that what you can accomplish in 1 day there takes at least 2 days in any other place (which is def a big encouragement to move here if you ask me)
As far as an extra yom tov being a burden, having experience both, I can tell you 1 day yom tov is much more enjoyable. I love all the chagim and G-d forbid I don’t think it’s a burden at all, but I know on my wife’s end of things it is a lot tougher cooking and preparing for 2, and especially 3, days of yom tov than just 1 at a time. Plus while I’m at shul all day she is supposed to keep the kids from tearing the house apart for 3 days straight all by herself? Maybe you want to start telling me the mailos of mesirus nefesh for the chagim but you know what? Hashem made us basar v’dam, not malachim. There’s nothing wrong with doing what is required of you from the halacha and being happy with that… it doesn’t mean that you think the mitzvot are some burden you deep down wish you could get rid of. It just makes you a normal person. Also on the husband’s side of things, being in shul for longer amounts of time and mandatory seudot, while great, do take time. While I personally tried to invest a lot of effort into the davening and extra mitzvot of sukkot this year (and I have no regrets on that whatsover) on the other hand it did leave me fairly behind on my normal learning sedarim which I’m now left playing catchup to. What I’m trying to say is there is a lot to take into the cheshbon, it’s not so simple as just telling somebody, “you either like yom tov or you don’t.”
Additionally, in Israel most business and other things are closed down on Fridays so it has a chol hamoed feel to it anyway. And for anyone who wants to counter that in some places everything stays open and busy on Fridays, you wouldn’t be living in a neighborhood like that anyway so what are you complaining about?
Lastly, what is with bringing this whole thing about “chilonim hate us” or “I’d love to live in Israel but it’s just not religious enough for me.” Is good old red white and blue America really THAT much more Heimish than “secular” Israel? True there are non-religious Jews here who don’t like us but the vast majority don’t and it’s seriously just not an issue in your day to day life here unless you go around looking for it to be. Besides, even if some of us disagree with each other, we’re all still Yiddin at the end of the day. I guess you just enjoy the feeling of brotherhood you get to share with the American goyim better than that eh?
And the year following this year, we should live and be well, is a 5S7 model, also with RH on Thurssay, Pesach on Shabbat.
This thread, I noticed, took a twist. It began with criticizing the “eating” three days, now it twisted to facing the hard work of preparation etc.
Take note at what was the point mentioned, it was to recognize the the benefit & gain of every special Shabbos & Yom Tov Davening & meal.
Those that will like to start a new ad for Aliya discussing the hardships that are involved (without criticizing the actions of Kedusha) gladly go ahead. As we shall all truly crave to go back home to the land that Hashem gave our forefathers.
While I love Eretz Yisrael, if I make aliyah this won’t be the reason why.
And the year following this year, we should live and be well, is a 5S7 model, also with RH on Thurssay, Pesach on Shabbat.
The last time we had Rosh haShono 4 out of 5 years on Thursday & Friday, was 98 years ago, but next time shall be in 24 years followed by 27 years after that.
From 2070 to 2079 it shall not happen for 10 years straight. That shall be 1st time in 521 years, skipping 10 years straight.
But please bear in mind:- For working purposes:- It is much harder when all the Chaggim come out on a Tuesday & Wednesday, than having them come out on a Thursday 7 Friday.
OhTeeDee,
whether the calendar is fixed or not the concept that it may or may not be yuntiff *today* makes it all seem arbitrary.
I don’t see it as arbitrary at all. The date of Yom Tov was set by the Sanhedrin once the length of the previous month was determined (either 29 or 30 days). Therefore each festival had a fixed date. Whether people observed one or both possible days depending on where they lived makes no difference to the actual date and length of the festival.
Unlike Shabbos, whose dates are fixed by Hashem, the festivals were given to us to set within a framework (briefly, the first month must come in spring time, the Pesach is offered on the 14th of that month, the festival of matzos then follows from the 15th to 21st, Shavuous is 50 days after the morrow of the rest of that festival, Rosh Hashana on the 1st of the 7th month, Y”K on the 10th, Sukkos on the 15-21st, Shemini Atzeres on the 22nd. Other than that (and telling us in last week’s parsha that we should use the sun, moon, and stars to set our calendar), we have a say in how it’s done. It may seem a bit disconcerting, but Hashem bestowed our people with holiness through these festivals, and we actually have the ability to make the days holy. That’s why the Yom Tov bracha days “mikadesh Yisroel v’hazmanim” – Hashem makes Yisroel holy, and Yisroel makes the zmanim holy.
The fact specifically that today there is no safeik at all (and when there was did people really fast 2 days for yom kippur) AND no mechanism in place to acknowledge that the 2 day yuntiff “doesn’t apply” anymore.
You seem to be assuming that the reason we still observe both possible Yom Yov days in the diaspora is because there was no mechanism to overturn the previous ruling. I don’t think that is the case. The later sages chose to continue the practice because they didn’t see the problem in simply utilitarian terms. In other words, the uncertainty of when Tom Tov fell was caused because of a deficiency (living in the diaspora), so even though the calendar is fixed, at the end of the day, living in the diaspora is still a deficiency.
In terms of the moment in time when it did apply, the sages who created an “8th day” even for those in diaspora who cannot get the news of rosh chodesh – i believe were doing so in direct objection to the (perfect) Torah.
Nobody created an 8th day. We observe the last date of Pesach on 21 Nissan due to the 7 day festival that started on the 15th – we just assume that the 1st of the month could have been either 30 or 31 days after the start of the previous month. If you are considering yourself to be observing an 8th day of Pesach, then you are not looking at the halacha correctly. In Sukkos mussaf, we recite the offerings for the first day of the festival on both the first two days of observed Yom Tov, because we treat each day as if it could be Yom Tov. In the diaspora on the “3rd” day (after the two day Yom Tov), we recite the offerings for both the 2nd and 3rd days of the festival. Nothing new is being added.
In the simplest form, you cannot say that due to logistics Hashem really wants X even though he said Y! If anything it proves that the Torah, in its time wasn’t scalable to a global world.
The Torah is perfect, but it was never intended to be scalable to the globe. Hashem gave us the Torah and intended for us to live in Eretz Yisroel. Therefore, the halachos are designed for that area. Outside of Eretz Yisroel, many mitzvos lose their applicability. In Eretz Yisroel, grain harvesting is possible at Pesach time, and Jews are obligated to bring an omer offering. In Russia, however, crops are barely out of dormancy. The Torah was not written with Russia in mind. On Shemini Atzeres we daven for rain, but for Jews in Florida, the onset of the dry season begins a month or two later. The Torah was not written with Florida in mind. Hashem wants us to live in Eretz Yisroel, but due to our aveiros, we were exiled and now live in lands “out of sync” with our holy Torah. Having to observe both possible days that Yom Tov can fall out is just one manifestation of this imbalance in the system. Don’t blame the Torah, blame the exile.
The idea that “we would all be amish” is something I chuckle about, since essentially we ARE amish on shabbos and yuntiff.
Huh? I suddenly use no electricity (no lights left on, no timers, no A/C, no Shabbos alarm clock, no blech on an electric stove, no electric urn) on Shabbos, and trade my car in for a horse and buggy (which we don’t use on Shabbos either)? Your comment makes no sense to me. I think a hard-core Amish person witnessing Shabbos observance would say it looked and felt very different from his lifestyle.
There was never anything prohibiting the use of technology as the amish did
That wasn’t quite my point. You implied that halacha freeze-framed in the 19th Century. If that was the case, then there would have been no way for halacha to deal with technology on Shabbos.
but there is a certain resistance to using it, within the confines of halacha, on shabbos. For example putting a light on, which i believe falls under the av of boneh but couldnt possibly be anything close to what boneh IS (or was in the mishkan). This is the understanding and application of a halacha that let’s face it, has NO precedent in jewish history/law (how could it. times change and not everything could be covered). so has halacha “dealt” with this or just outlawed it for lack of understanding?
I think you may have it backwards. Early treatment of electric devices tended to permit them, but once greater knowledge of how those devices worked, then they became forbidden. It actually was the increased understanding that led to the restrictions, not a lack.
What’s interesting to me is that the sages forbade the use of electrical devices on Shabbos – which seems silly to you because the melachos deal with things like hammering and sewing. But Hashem tells me to not work on Shabbos, and in my job I do not hammer or sew – I use electronic devices. Through remote connectivity, I can stay home and work a full day without doing anything but interact with electronic devices – so thank G-d they are forbidden on Shabbos!
Re: fridges, I honestly do not know how it is muttar to open one on shabbos. It is 40 degrees in there and 72 degrees in the room. you open the fridge, 20 seconds later the thing kicks on. You walk into a room with central air. by definition your presence warms the air, miniscule as that may be. the AC kicks on. Is this any better than turning on a light?
Discuss this with a rabbi. It’s not like they didn’t think of any of this!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.