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Just pointing something out that seems very absurd to me – The frum world and all of our Rabbanim are against Zionism – including joining the IDF, believing in pro-Israeli State ideas and ideologies – and this comes up very frequently when discussing draft laws against Yeshiva bochurim. Yet at the same time that we’re so against the participation in such an anti-Torah movement, YWN posts daily about all the successes of the IDF in the ongoing war. We hear about the terrorists killed in air strikes, all the advancements in enemy territory, all the successful bombings, etc, and they’re all mentioned in connection to the brains of the Israeli Intelligence and Defense Force, whether or not it’s written as such. I understand that the killing of terrorists and destruction of everything connected to them deserve to be recognized and felt grateful for, yet giving constant credit to the very people, the very government, that we are against because of their anti-Torah principles, seems absurd and backward to me. Why do we – at least do I – sometimes feel a sense of pride and strength when we see successes and advancements by Israel and its army against terrorists? We should only be feeling gratitude toward הקב”ה. We want all רשעים to be obliterated and wiped off the face of this Earth, but each killing, each successful mission, seems to be attached to the power of the Israeli army, especially on news sites. The concept of כחי ועצם ידי is thrown around and frowned upon, but I believe that many of us are guilty of feeling it, most commonly when hearing news that labels successes in war as being a result of IDF strength and power…
Our beliefs and principles must be consistent. We are anti-Zionism, anti the State of Israel, anti all the apikorsus they spew. So let’s recognize that all “their” accomplishments result from nothing and no one, but ‘יד ה.
Just something to think about…I don’t understand the anti Zionism. Can’t we just love Jews? Sinas chinam is the reason we don’t have moshiach. Ahavas chinam is the solution. And of course it was king David who said G-d is with me through my helpers. G-d seems to want to protect the Jewish people through the IDF. What a lack of koros tov not to be thankful to them for acting as G-ds shluchim. A chutzpah.
agreed
wtsp, I admire that you noticed this cognitive dissonance. Maybe, the solution is other way around: if you see your fellow Jews being mosser nefesh to protect other Yidden and often have tremendous hatzloha, and they include a lot of shomer shabbos Yidden – maybe you can think how you can contribute instead of oppose?
YWN doesn’t represent anyone other than the owner of the website.
keith:
So, how come anti-Zionists are so reviled by “Modern Orthodoxy”, then?
The Zionists are not G-d’s messengers; the Zionists are the greatest rebels against G-d. G-d protects His people despite, not with, the evil Zionists.wtsp:
The answer is that Zionist propaganda is unfortunately extremely strong, and some do not realize that they are influenced by Zionist propaganda against the Torah and its values in multiple ways. And Jewish pride is only doing what Hashem wants, meaning: learning Torah and fulfilling mitzvos, not any military accomplishment (especially by the wicked Zionists in their shmad army which is a den of all three of the three chamuros).First off, not all the Israeli agree with the OP. There were so many videos shared of IDF soldiers davening, learning, and more. They 100% believe that we need Hashem’s help in all this.
But now I think of some of the posts from one of the leading haters on this site, HaKatan, He loves to claim that there was nothing miraculous about Israel’s victory in the Six Day War, and it shouldn’t be celebrated. Clearly, he’s the one who doesn’t believe in Hashem’s involvement. He believes that it’s all about the natural strength, and that’s what should be recognized.
What an apikores.Is the the straw man thread?
Makes no sense what your saying !!
The reason why we don’t thank hashem for Israel’s success is PRECISELY BECAUSE we are anti zionist.
What you’re saying is extremely zionist. Why would we give gratitude to hashem if we are anti zionist????
Such backwards, opposite thinking. This whole thread is based on a TOTALLY corrupted understanding of anti zionism.
One can believe that the IDF is doing G-d’s work in keeping millions of Jews safe (השתדלות). One can also believe that people should not be pulled out of yeshiva or other obligations for that end. An organization can exist without everyone being required to be a member of said organization. Where’s the contradiction?
You can actually work on both at the same time. Recognize that all our success comes from Hashem and also work on developing Hakaoras Hatov to the brave fighters in the IDF who are moser nefesh constantly in many ways (risking life, giving up parnasa, family life, loss of Torah learning, etc). If you have trouble with this mussar excercise try to focus on one each week and switch off.
Bhatzlacha!
Thankfully for many Jews there is no inconsistency. The IDF are shlichim of Hashem who protect Eretz Yisrael and Am Yisrael. The Israeli Government is simply a rebellious king. Everything is being orchestrated by Bore Olam. We are in the middle of a process towards the geula and everything makes perfect sense. We live in unprecedented times. The quicker we all realize that a hashkafa that includes hatred towards members of Am Yisrael is improper and instead we love and appreciate all of Hashems children and the role they play in the grand scheme of things even if we keep separate from them the sooner the geula will arrive.
I can do these three at once:
1. Thank Hashem for my child’s medical recovery.
2. Thank the doctors and Hatzalah for putting tremendous efforts into being Hashem’s shluchim (especially if they put their lives on the line with mesiras nefesh).
3. Strongly disagree with certain ideologies held by those doctors or Hatzalah members.We do these three things all the time. Business, health, community safety, and even thanking the mailman.
user > The Israeli Government is simply a rebellious king
Israel is, more or less, a democracy with (too) frequent elections. So, the citizens are responsible for the government. So, if you think people are wrong, go and talk to them. Explain your positions, open schools, show with your behavior that yours is an honorable way to behave.
DaMoshe:
The pro-Zionist idolaters (like you) are the actual “haters”, who support the shmad “State” that was and is the greatest rebellion against G-d, the Torah and His people and is responsible for the spiritual loss of untold millions of Jews over multiple generations under their control.More facts:
It is not I who “loves to claim” that the Zionist victory in their war in 1967 was not miraculous. The holy Satmar Rav (verboten in your haskala world, I know) wrote that explicitly. And it is simply the fact, if you read the history and other books and writings on the subject and even ask the wicked Zionists (and read their words at the time), that the Zionist victory in their war in 1967 was predicted by the intelligence agencies and the Zionists themselves knew it.Of course, Jews who believe in only G-d (unlike Zionist idolaters who also believe in their idol), certainly believe that G-d could have ended the Zionist experiment in that war and delivered a loss to the Zionists, had He wanted to do that. But only fools (or idolaters) claim that the Zionist victory was a miracle when it factually was a conventional military victory.
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