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wtsp, you can ask farkert as well- if Eretz Yisroel is ours, why root against the state? Let the Zionists get the land ready for the maaminim bnei maaminim to take it over when moshiach comes.
Hakatan first off relax on your mean statements. Everyone can say whatever they want. Just because it doesn’t fit your ideology doesn’t mean it doesn’t belong someone we aren’t a clique. (Or we sure act like it sometimes,pathetic) Adverse opinions are important so everyone finds the truth. If we all agreed with each other we would never learn something. You don’t have to agree but whoa chil
Damoshe your not sounding coherent. What the guy said. Makes sense. Screaming it’s our state sounds very uh….childish. The reason there _is_ a state at all and or “belong’ to Jews at all is because of the state so the guy is right he supports the state even if he doesn’t support the apikores aspect it _makes_ sense. Live in reality. Kindly
Always ask questions what? Skewed, crooked logic, or someones opinions or beliefs system that they formed by speaking about what they think? Your literally saying we should all censure ourselves for you. Not say our opinions. Only think one way. Your ok?
wtsp: why is it hypocritical?
>>> “I can support the State of Israel, without supporting the apikorsis of many of its founders.”
wtsp> This is the most hypocritical sentence I’ve ever read.Wtsp, current leaders of Israel did not inherit power from their founders-fathers. They earned their position in an election. Thought experiment: R Sonnenfeld starts the medinah in 1910 (and why didn’t he?). It is all according to halocho but also a democracy. Then, war refugees and sephardim arrive and they vote in today’s parties. At the end, the matzav is the same. You need to deal with current state. Does it matter who started it.
This is not a new situation. We had a melech dragging bones of his father in public. Do we judge him being a bad melech because of his father, or do we judge him based on his actions?
none > Your literally saying we should all censure ourselves for you. Not say our opinions. Only think one way. Your ok?
what I mean is that when you are trying to convince someone of your opinion, you should present all info, including the one that contradicts your view; when you quote a Rav, try to see whether this Rav said other things; whether there are Rabonim who say it differently. A lot of discussions here are straight out of CNN war rooms, where each side shouts out their slogans in a hope than the other side will not bring relevant arguments. Beis Hillel was accepted because they always brought B Shammai opinion first.
none2.0:
I thought my post was a factual one, but I guess you took offense at my writing “So, that’s silly”?
Whatever. I apologize.Cuz your human. And we don’t do things based off technicalities but also feelings. It’s ok to be paradoxical. This is real life. And it doesn’t always have to make sense. Use your brain for more important things.
Hakatan we don’t control reality G-d does so if He decided that we should have a state via the army (how do we know, cuz it happened) then it’s His will. We don’t get to decide the timing. L
AAQ:
It is absolutely forbidden for Jews to have political rule there before Mashiach comes. Period. RYCZ would therefore obviously not have dreamed of doing any such thing, as that would not be “according to halacha”. In fact, RYCZ wanted to remain independent of the wicked Zionists, and had Dr. Yaacov DeHaan negotiating that with the gentiles until the wicked Zionists murdered Dr. DeHaan in cold blood.The way to deal with the current “State” is first to understand that it is a rebellion against, and great enemy of, G-d and His Torah. The next thing to know is that, as the Chazon Ish stated, one morning we will wake up to discover that the “State” simply doesn’t exist anymore. With that basic understanding, you then move on to the Brisker Rav who stated that dealing with the Zionists is like dealing with any other opponent, including diplomacy.
As to your question about current ruler vs prior ruler, it is absolutely disgraceful to compare these heretics of a fake “Jewish” “State” to liHavdil, malchus beis Dovid. Besides for that point, the crucial difference is that in the case of the Zionist “State”, regardless of the leader – current or prior – that “State” is still Zionist, meaning that it is a mass and gross rebellion against G-d and His Torah and a danger to His people R”L, both spiritually and physically. Zionism at its core, ideologically, is the diametric opposite of Torah. None of that was true of malchus beis Dovid, even though there were some kings who did not lead the people properly, worshiped idols, etc.
katan is spouting rubbish again , as usual.
wtsp > Firstly, how exactly are the Zionists preparing Eretz Yisroel for Mashiach? Secondly, I’m not telling anyone to go fight a war against Zionists. Rather, everyone should be aware and recognize the fact that founding the State was wrong, and that believing in Zionism is wrong.
I am not arguing with your arguments about early Zionists. I may be able to find zechoyos – many of them (not all), like Hertzl, came from totally assimilated background and were driven by ahavas Yisroel, but this is an interesting, but historical, argument.
I want to raise 2 points:
1) Zionism undoubtfully helped save a lot of Yidden before WW2, run away from Muslim countries, from USSR. It was especially beneficial for non-religious Jews who would surely intermarry if they were able to get to US or other countries like that. R Schach writes that Hashem made Yishmailim to hate Zionists so that they do not assimilate. So, somehow Hashem saw it fit to make those Zionists a kli of yeshua. Whether it is due to their hidden zechuyos or some other considerations, I can’t tell. But I bet you can’t also.2) Israel is not governed by grandchildren of King Gurion. Current Israeli government is a result of free elections by citizens of Israel. It has almost nothing to do with writings by Theodore Herzl/
These citizens are who they are – and how well we, as religious Jews, were able to show them the beauty of Torah. There were plenty of years to achieve that. I am thinking that even a kibutznik in 4th generation would support Torah learning by his shekalim if he were to see how nice and ehriche observant Jews are: “yes, I know my dati doctor who saved my child and a dati person who showed chesed to me when I got lost, and I want them to teach their children the same way”.
wtsp > AAQ: 1- So give me one reason why no Gedolei Torah support the current State of Israel.
For multiple reasons. For one, you are using “no true scotsman” sevorah – you were taught who the gedolei Israel are. I learn with, and read both charedi and non-charedi Talmidei Chachamim and I see arguments on both sides of such issues. One thing I see in person – a lot of Rabbis I find convincing based solely on what they teach – most likely also respect each other, across the party line. My most charedi rav who rails against college raises up when my most non-charedi rav, who mostly teaches people with graduate degrees, walks in. We can see the same at higher levels – as we discussed her ad nauseum, R Soloveitchik, R Feinstein, Lubavitcher Rebbe were respectful towards each other, etc, etc.
For another, explicit charedi policy from Chazon Ish and on is to separate the community from the outside dangers, to be in the proverbial (Rambamian) midbar. This policy led to a lot of success both in EY and chutz laaretz, but it creates limitations to what one can accept as a social policy. I know of people, for example, with children in very charedi yeshiva where nobody went to college, and when he asked Rosh Yeshiva, he allowed it.
For third, I am not sure all information get publicized. Is it well known, for a random example, that R Auerbach allowed future R Lau to study for bagrut while in his yeshiva and then chastised the boy when he said that he is not interested in science – “I listen to Hebrew U students in the bus discussing physics and how you can be not interested in it!”. That R Eliyasiv was apparently already very familiar with Mossad activities when someone asked him a shaila about related issues. …
I would also like to point out that in the famous statement of Rav Elchonon Wasserman zt”l hy”d, he mentions that his words comparing the Zionists to Amaleik do NOT apply to the tinokos shenishbu. Reb Elchonon Wasserman zt”l hy”d would be appalled at the things being said in his name.
The Zionists are preparing Eretz Yisroel by paving roads, planting trees, building plumbing, etc. When moshiach comes, the yidden won’t be starting from scratch. Plenty of gedolim supported returning to Eretz Yisroel, and would be appalled that other Yidden who claim to speak for Torah reitz on the Palestinians and Iranians to attack yidden in Eretz yisroel.
Somejewiknow. Wow your so controlling. And what if someone does support it cuz that’s how they feel you cant force someone to change the way they think to conform to your fear mongering. Relax
hakatan :
It is absolutely forbidden for Jews to have political rule there before Mashiach comes.
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WRONG !—
khazar kings dissolved their kingdom straight away when they converted ?have any of the rabbanim instructed them to do so ?
why not ?
.lets see katan wriggle his way out of this one ….
he will probably just ignore it ….
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.Nu ..
khazars transgressed the shavu’ot ?
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waiting …..
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Yankel: Who ever said the Khazar kings were tzadikim or that whatever they did was the right thing?
From Hakatan:
AAQ:
It is absolutely forbidden for Jews to have political rule there before Mashiach comes. Period.Where is this written? I can’t find this issur in the Rambam or the Shulchan Aruch.
yankel > khazars transgressed the shavu’ot
technically, they did not! The king first was the king and then did giyur. So, kingdom was “grandfathered in”. But how about Yemenites who had a Jewish kingdom somewhere 7-10th centuries, I think.
Who said this rav said. See why I can’t take you guys seriously n you guys sound like 7 year olds on a playground can we grow up
if that was one of the ikarei emuna as satmar so loudly proclaims the rabanim would have written about this .
such a flagrant beach of the yesodot of our faith ….
what do you think , we did not have rabanim of the caliber of satmar rav in those times ?
why did r yehudah halevi not mention one word about this in his monumental sefer hakuzari where all other even minor aspects of judaism are elucidated ?
come on, where is common sense ?
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.@aaq
aaq:
[re khazars transgressing the 3 shavu’ot]
“technically, they did not! The king first was the king and then did giyur. So, kingdom was “grandfathered in”……—
katan fraudulently maintains that lfi hahalacha , and I quote
“It is absolutely forbidden for Jews to have political rule there before Mashiach comes.”
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note it’s not ***establishing*** political rule which katan prohibits
it is “for jews ***having*** political rule before Mashiach comes, which katan prohibits.
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which is clearly disproven by total rabbinic silence over hundreds of years in the face of the continued existence of a jewish kingdom .
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.Wow the amount of extremism and bullying in these chats. Wow. Relax. Someone said something different then you. Chill out. This is not conformist central we are free people to think as we fit. Everyone is constantly trying to conform each other. Goody goody two shoes. Stop being so neorotic. That makes you hate other people who have a self
Also……you can’t force people to present facts “your” way. You need to shush and listen. And give comebacks. Nobody has to conform to your will or way of thinking. Crazy
Spoken like a true Am Haaretz.
Supporting the state is Daas Torah. There is NO Halacha that states otherwise.
If there was really such a prohibition to make a state, bayis sheini never would have happened. And Rabbi Akiva would never have supported Bar Kochba. Rabbi Akiva is quoted all over the Zohar, not just in nigleh.
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