June 13, 2022 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #2096269
When it comes to new technology, the yeshivish wing usually has an aversion to it. Case in point the Internet. About 20-30 years ago many in the chasidish and yeahivish circles were saying its assur. But along that time Mizrachi and Chabad Jews were already using it to provide information. Eventually when the yeshivish world saw that it could be used for shiurim and to look up sefarim then they were ok with it. Why couldn’t they have been positive about it from the beginning?June 13, 2022 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #2096304
They could have been positive about it from the beginning. Some were.June 13, 2022 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #2096315Reb EliezerParticipant
They were afraid that it can be misused. The pros and cons must be weighed.June 14, 2022 12:22 am at 12:22 am #2096364
The display of falsity here…when will the misconception about koach dehetera stop?
Chazal do not say that it is better to be maikil or matir.
It NEVER means that. Where did this come from?? It ALWAYS, withoit exception, is used in gemara to express the strength of one tanna or amora’s shitoh. The fact that they were able to be matir shows the strength of their shitoh, because anyone can be machmir out of not knowing the halacha clearly. Only if someone knows the halacha very clearly can they allow something. Most people who use this expression simply want to be matir things because yiddishkeit is a burden for them.. nebach.
Poskim go out of their way to be maikil for…agunos, nidah shailos, kashrus shailos for poor people, cholim, the list goes on. My mesorah from rav belsky is not to look for chumros.
Anyways here’s a list of places in the gemara where the expression is used to describe the strength of the psak being made, NOT to say that being meikil is better than being strict.
Berachos 60a, eruvin 72b, bayah 2b, gitttin 41b and 74b, kidushin 60b..and one more.
Let’s bury this ignorance once and for all.June 14, 2022 12:55 am at 12:55 am #2096376
Your correct. What about yevomos 37a?June 14, 2022 1:08 am at 1:08 am #2096393
Please don’t tell me you’re reading yehe raava literally.. It’s sarcasm. They’re saying the din is as pashut as chelevJune 14, 2022 1:58 am at 1:58 am #2096401
I didn’t even address the laughable suggestion that the yeshivos are…ok…with the Internet. Do you remember citfiield? Do you remember rav vosners psak that one who has unfiltered internet is pasul le’adus? The yeshivos have not wavered on their opposition to the Internet. The same rules that were laid out then apply now:
Best not to use it at all
2nd best is only at work
If not, only for work at home with a very good filter, not in a private room, and not letting kids near it under any circumstances
If necessary, shopping is allowed as a big bedieved
Recreational use was never permitted on a general basis; individuals may have heterim from their rov for extenuating circumstances.
Torah, etc – if one already has internet for a legitimate purpose, many are ok with using it for learning and shiurim. Many aren’t. That’s a big split nowadays.
I don’t know who told you that yeshivos are ok with Internet use. It’s as big of a lie as the MO people who say that the satmar rebbe wasn’t against the state of Israel (sic)June 14, 2022 7:53 am at 7:53 am #2096461
Come on. You know the internet is not a consensus topic.June 14, 2022 7:53 am at 7:53 am #2096463
I would say the Rosh Yeshivos were not for or against internet, until the problem were brought to the surface.June 14, 2022 7:54 am at 7:54 am #2096464
On yevamos 37a. It could be read either way. Saying it’s satire is not enough. It still implies something closer to the OP. (I’m not trying to ‘prove’ anything. Just checking if you had a better answer.)June 14, 2022 8:05 am at 8:05 am #2096465
That means it takes hate wisdom to be matir than to make assur. Almost every yeshiva has a rayze campaign. 2012 only accomplished appealing to an audience who weren’t really using the Internet anyway. There could have been positivity about the possibilities of tzedakah and tourah sources as are the ways internet is used by many baal habatim even in lakewood Williamsburg and in Israel today. But the point is that other types of Jews are using the technology and are looking to be on the right side of history. What happens in a yeshiva isn’t nevessarily applied to what happens in the general world.June 14, 2022 9:45 am at 9:45 am #2096500Reb EliezerParticipant
Rashi explains in Beah that to be matir we need a basis, a kabola from our rebbies, whereas to asser anyone can.June 14, 2022 10:19 am at 10:19 am #2096514jackkParticipant
Noda BiYhudah I, Even HaEzer 29
ועדיף לן כח דהיתרא להתיר העלובה הזאת אחרי שעל זה אנו מצווים ועומדים להמציא כל צד היתר שאפשר כדי להקל בעגונה
Toldot Yaakov Yosef, Shoftim
וכמו בחורבן ירושלים, שהיו נביאי אמת מוכיחין בשער לעשות טוב פן יחייבו לממ”ה, ונביאי שקר היו מקילין להם, ובישרו שלום וצדק, שלא יאונה להם כל און, ובוודאי כח דהתירא עדיף הי’ להם לשמוע, עד שגרמו בעו”ה לבית מחמדנו לחרוב ונפלה עטרת ראשינו, כמ”ש (איכה ב, יד) נביאיך חזו לך שוא ומדוחים ולא גלו על עוונךJune 14, 2022 10:19 am at 10:19 am #2096515Chaylev HalyahParticipant
why do you think using the internet is putting ppl on the right side of history?
maybe it’s the oppositeJune 14, 2022 10:19 am at 10:19 am #2096513HaLeiViParticipant
Koach Tehetera Adif proves that you have to be very wary of bring Mattir something, and only if you are 100% sure of it can you do so. And so, it proves the opposite of how the קלים use it.
n0mesora, are you trying to trick people here? The Gemara is describing the shock of Rav Mesharshia at the leniency of Ravina. In his shock he exclaimed, “You allowed this? Hopefully you’ll allow Chelev, too!”
If you seriously think you can take this ‘either way’, I’ll have to re-read anything you quoted here previously.June 14, 2022 10:34 am at 10:34 am #2096531
I suppose an academic might read the gemara that way..June 14, 2022 12:29 pm at 12:29 pm #2096567ToShmaParticipant
Based on חדש אסור מן התורה the skepticism was always in place. Caution is good. Not to rush into a new thing is actually healthy, with precautionary steps in place.June 14, 2022 12:29 pm at 12:29 pm #2096577
I’m not ignoring that there are dangers but it’s easier to say treif and ban it than to look into the possibilities of how it can be of benefit to us. I have a filter as per daas torah but it doesn’t mean I say it’s all bad. Waze wasn’t a benefit to everyone? Can we live without these things? Yes. But there are a lot of benefits that have fron it that have improved our lives.June 14, 2022 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #2096593
Why is everyone so excited? The gemara can be read either way. That’s obvious from the context. I don’t care about the debate here about approach, because so many tong essays have been written on the topic that we are not going to change things based on a diyuk that is obviously inconclusive. It is of interest that you all feel threatened by this gemara. Because even how you read it, it’s still a kasha on you. And you don’t have a good teretz. So what that there is a kasha. A rayah it is not.June 14, 2022 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #2096745ParticipantParticipant
the only reason internet has become more prevalent is, as discussed on the R’ Aharon Kotler thread, people don’t listen to daas torah anymore.June 14, 2022 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #2096761
Internet was never banned in Lakewood. The idea was to try to prevent/slow it from being normalized. And even in your alternative portrayal, the OP still has a point. Twenty years ago, it was still a non-issue. Even though we now know that it was.June 14, 2022 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #2096766
I find waze to be awful and overrated.June 14, 2022 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #2096874GefilteFishParticipant
I once heard from Rav Yaakov Hillel shlit”a that what used to be called “koach d’hetera adif” has now become “koach d’hefkera adif.”
After discussing this comment with others who were present at the shiur, I think the pshat is as follows:
There are 3 categories:
כח דהיתירה I am confident in this leniency since I know there is no contradiction to it anywhere, and I can resolve anything which seems to be contradictory
חומרה- I don’t know if there is a contradiction elsewhere, and based on my lack of knowledge I have no choice but to be stringent
הפקרה- I am deciding to be lenient and I don’t know- nor do I really care- if there is a contradiction anywhere else. I’m not even aware of the potential issues, let alone have a way to resolve contradictions.
Today too many people mean this last way.June 14, 2022 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #2096883
I think that’s a nice way of putting it. Just change the last line –
Today, we are much more aware of what others do.June 14, 2022 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #2096884Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
It is right to be conservative in using new things.
Moses Mendelsohn was very enthusiastic about new things, others – opposed. Is it intrinsically bad to read Chumash in High German? So, many people read ArtScroll now (ok, it may be High Yinglish), but at the time, it directly assisted assimilation.
Founder of Chabad opposed Napoleon and supported the Czar with spies, in part because of fear of modernity; others, including Chaim Volozhin – disagreed, even if they saw that Czar is likely to survive. Maybe a closer case, but still.
Still, sometimes one needs to act boldly in view of external changes. See Rabban Gamliel, writing of the Mishna, etc. Claiming that “power of meikel” is mis-understood by serious opponents is as credible as to claim that Chasam Sofer was talking about grain when he re-prohibited “chadash”.June 15, 2022 12:09 pm at 12:09 pm #2097167
You can make guidelines for people instead of burying your head in the sand. And almost every yeshiva benefits from the Internet in terms of fundraising. I never suggested that it’s hefker and that there isn’t a bad side to it, but the reality is that it has become a big part of the world. How many shidduchim today are redt through whatsapp and other platforms. And I don’t buy the attitude of they didn’t have it in the olden days and people were happy. No not everyone was.June 15, 2022 12:49 pm at 12:49 pm #2097197
At this point the yeshiva world uses the internet. The whole public outcry, is just to hide that fact.
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