כח דהתירה עדיף

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  • #2096269
    lakewhut
    Participant

    When it comes to new technology, the yeshivish wing usually has an aversion to it. Case in point the Internet. About 20-30 years ago many in the chasidish and yeahivish circles were saying its assur. But along that time Mizrachi and Chabad Jews were already using it to provide information. Eventually when the yeshivish world saw that it could be used for shiurim and to look up sefarim then they were ok with it. Why couldn’t they have been positive about it from the beginning?

    #2096304
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    They could have been positive about it from the beginning. Some were.

    #2096315
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    They were afraid that it can be misused. The pros and cons must be weighed.

    #2096364
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    The display of falsity here…when will the misconception about koach dehetera stop?

    Chazal do not say that it is better to be maikil or matir.

    It NEVER means that. Where did this come from?? It ALWAYS, withoit exception, is used in gemara to express the strength of one tanna or amora’s shitoh. The fact that they were able to be matir shows the strength of their shitoh, because anyone can be machmir out of not knowing the halacha clearly. Only if someone knows the halacha very clearly can they allow something. Most people who use this expression simply want to be matir things because yiddishkeit is a burden for them.. nebach.
    Poskim go out of their way to be maikil for…agunos, nidah shailos, kashrus shailos for poor people, cholim, the list goes on. My mesorah from rav belsky is not to look for chumros.

    Anyways here’s a list of places in the gemara where the expression is used to describe the strength of the psak being made, NOT to say that being meikil is better than being strict.
    Berachos 60a, eruvin 72b, bayah 2b, gitttin 41b and 74b, kidushin 60b..and one more.

    Let’s bury this ignorance once and for all.

    #2096376
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Avira,

    Your correct. What about yevomos 37a?

    #2096393
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Please don’t tell me you’re reading yehe raava literally.. It’s sarcasm. They’re saying the din is as pashut as chelev

    #2096401
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    I didn’t even address the laughable suggestion that the yeshivos are…ok…with the Internet. Do you remember citfiield? Do you remember rav vosners psak that one who has unfiltered internet is pasul le’adus? The yeshivos have not wavered on their opposition to the Internet. The same rules that were laid out then apply now:

    Best not to use it at all
    2nd best is only at work
    If not, only for work at home with a very good filter, not in a private room, and not letting kids near it under any circumstances
    If necessary, shopping is allowed as a big bedieved
    Recreational use was never permitted on a general basis; individuals may have heterim from their rov for extenuating circumstances.
    Torah, etc – if one already has internet for a legitimate purpose, many are ok with using it for learning and shiurim. Many aren’t. That’s a big split nowadays.

    I don’t know who told you that yeshivos are ok with Internet use. It’s as big of a lie as the MO people who say that the satmar rebbe wasn’t against the state of Israel (sic)

    #2096461
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Come on. You know the internet is not a consensus topic.

    #2096463
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    I would say the Rosh Yeshivos were not for or against internet, until the problem were brought to the surface.

    #2096464
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    On yevamos 37a. It could be read either way. Saying it’s satire is not enough. It still implies something closer to the OP. (I’m not trying to ‘prove’ anything. Just checking if you had a better answer.)

    #2096465
    lakewhut
    Participant

    Avirah,

    That means it takes hate wisdom to be matir than to make assur. Almost every yeshiva has a rayze campaign. 2012 only accomplished appealing to an audience who weren’t really using the Internet anyway. There could have been positivity about the possibilities of tzedakah and tourah sources as are the ways internet is used by many baal habatim even in lakewood Williamsburg and in Israel today. But the point is that other types of Jews are using the technology and are looking to be on the right side of history. What happens in a yeshiva isn’t nevessarily applied to what happens in the general world.

    #2096500
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Rashi explains in Beah that to be matir we need a basis, a kabola from our rebbies, whereas to asser anyone can.

    #2096514
    jackk
    Participant

    Noda BiYhudah I, Even HaEzer 29
    ועדיף לן כח דהיתרא להתיר העלובה הזאת אחרי שעל זה אנו מצווים ועומדים להמציא כל צד היתר שאפשר כדי להקל בעגונה

    Toldot Yaakov Yosef, Shoftim
    וכמו בחורבן ירושלים, שהיו נביאי אמת מוכיחין בשער לעשות טוב פן יחייבו לממ”ה, ונביאי שקר היו מקילין להם, ובישרו שלום וצדק, שלא יאונה להם כל און, ובוודאי כח דהתירא עדיף הי’ להם לשמוע, עד שגרמו בעו”ה לבית מחמדנו לחרוב ונפלה עטרת ראשינו, כמ”ש (איכה ב, יד) נביאיך חזו לך שוא ומדוחים ולא גלו על עוונך

    #2096515
    Chaylev Halyah
    Participant

    @lakewut
    why do you think using the internet is putting ppl on the right side of history?
    maybe it’s the opposite

    #2096513
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Koach Tehetera Adif proves that you have to be very wary of bring Mattir something, and only if you are 100% sure of it can you do so. And so, it proves the opposite of how the קלים use it.

    n0mesora, are you trying to trick people here? The Gemara is describing the shock of Rav Mesharshia at the leniency of Ravina. In his shock he exclaimed, “You allowed this? Hopefully you’ll allow Chelev, too!”

    If you seriously think you can take this ‘either way’, I’ll have to re-read anything you quoted here previously.

    #2096531
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    I suppose an academic might read the gemara that way..

    #2096567
    ToShma
    Participant

    Based on חדש אסור מן התורה the skepticism was always in place. Caution is good. Not to rush into a new thing is actually healthy, with precautionary steps in place.

    #2096577
    lakewhut
    Participant

    Haleivi,

    I’m not ignoring that there are dangers but it’s easier to say treif and ban it than to look into the possibilities of how it can be of benefit to us. I have a filter as per daas torah but it doesn’t mean I say it’s all bad. Waze wasn’t a benefit to everyone? Can we live without these things? Yes. But there are a lot of benefits that have fron it that have improved our lives.

    #2096593
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Why is everyone so excited? The gemara can be read either way. That’s obvious from the context. I don’t care about the debate here about approach, because so many tong essays have been written on the topic that we are not going to change things based on a diyuk that is obviously inconclusive. It is of interest that you all feel threatened by this gemara. Because even how you read it, it’s still a kasha on you. And you don’t have a good teretz. So what that there is a kasha. A rayah it is not.

    #2096745
    Participant
    Participant

    the only reason internet has become more prevalent is, as discussed on the R’ Aharon Kotler thread, people don’t listen to daas torah anymore.

    #2096761
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Participant,

    Internet was never banned in Lakewood. The idea was to try to prevent/slow it from being normalized. And even in your alternative portrayal, the OP still has a point. Twenty years ago, it was still a non-issue. Even though we now know that it was.

    #2096766
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    I find waze to be awful and overrated.

    #2096874
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    I once heard from Rav Yaakov Hillel shlit”a that what used to be called “koach d’hetera adif” has now become “koach d’hefkera adif.”

    After discussing this comment with others who were present at the shiur, I think the pshat is as follows:
    There are 3 categories:
    כח דהיתירה I am confident in this leniency since I know there is no contradiction to it anywhere, and I can resolve anything which seems to be contradictory
    חומרה- I don’t know if there is a contradiction elsewhere, and based on my lack of knowledge I have no choice but to be stringent
    הפקרה- I am deciding to be lenient and I don’t know- nor do I really care- if there is a contradiction anywhere else. I’m not even aware of the potential issues, let alone have a way to resolve contradictions.

    Today too many people mean this last way.

    #2096883
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    I think that’s a nice way of putting it. Just change the last line –

    Today, we are much more aware of what others do.

    #2096884

    It is right to be conservative in using new things.

    Moses Mendelsohn was very enthusiastic about new things, others – opposed. Is it intrinsically bad to read Chumash in High German? So, many people read ArtScroll now (ok, it may be High Yinglish), but at the time, it directly assisted assimilation.

    Founder of Chabad opposed Napoleon and supported the Czar with spies, in part because of fear of modernity; others, including Chaim Volozhin – disagreed, even if they saw that Czar is likely to survive. Maybe a closer case, but still.

    Still, sometimes one needs to act boldly in view of external changes. See Rabban Gamliel, writing of the Mishna, etc. Claiming that “power of meikel” is mis-understood by serious opponents is as credible as to claim that Chasam Sofer was talking about grain when he re-prohibited “chadash”.

    #2097167
    lakewhut
    Participant

    You can make guidelines for people instead of burying your head in the sand. And almost every yeshiva benefits from the Internet in terms of fundraising. I never suggested that it’s hefker and that there isn’t a bad side to it, but the reality is that it has become a big part of the world. How many shidduchim today are redt through whatsapp and other platforms. And I don’t buy the attitude of they didn’t have it in the olden days and people were happy. No not everyone was.

    #2097197
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    At this point the yeshiva world uses the internet. The whole public outcry, is just to hide that fact.

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