???? ???? – Angel of Death

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  • #607235
    Chortkov
    Participant

    Is the Angel of Death involved in every death, and is it possible for me to kill somebody without the help of the ???? ?????

    The ???? says that ????? ???, there is a commandment to build three new ??? ???? (Cities of Refuge). If, however, it is impossible to kill without the ???? ????, based on the ???? ?? ??? that ???”? will ‘shecht’ the ???? ????, why would one need a ??? ???? to function for murderers? It sounds like a proof that it is possible to kill without assistance.

    Another proof can be brought from the ?? ???? – the ???? suggests that ???? is ???? from the ???? ???, and the ???? pushes away the suggestion by saying ??? ???? ????? ????. It sounds like the ???? is saying that it provides protection only from the ???? ????, but the ???? ??? can still come and kill the murderer!

    Thirdly, even after the ???? ???? is destroyed, if one were to cut up another person into six parts, i do not believe that the victim would continue to live.

    Any thoughts, proofs or remarks on this topic?

    #911740
    WIY
    Member

    Yekke2

    In the Torah by the Avos and Moshe Rabbeinu and Aharon it says “vayigva” which means they died a missas neshika from Hashem no malach hamaves involved.

    Regarding the future, Im not so clear on the sequence of events but its likely that ghe shechting of the malacha hamaves will be at a later time than the building of these arei miklat. Btw is this future arei miklat discussed?

    #911741
    shmendrick
    Member

    The additional three new Cities of Refuge that will be established when Moshiach comes will serve for all the murders done PRIOR to Moshiach’s arrival, during the time of our exile. After all, when Moshiach arrives, “the ruach hatumah will be removed from the land” (Rambam end of Hilchos Melochim).

    #911742
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    You can bring proof from the cow.

    #911743
    nem621
    Member

    weather or not the malach a mavet is necessary i don’t know, but i do know you can’t actually kill a person. ill try to explain what i mean but if you don’t understand there is a great podcast called the shmooz he discuses it.

    you can’t even lift your hand without H’ allowing you. this is the whole reason why ican do tshuva from bein adam la chavero since anything i do is with the help of H’ he wouldn’t let someone get something bad to happen to them if they didn’t deserve it/ wasn’t best for them. so i am but a messenger (message ilustrated in megilat ester when Mordechai tells Esther that if she doesn’t rise up to the task someone else will) not why is it then a sin if i am carrying out the will oh H’? it is my intention, i wanted to cause harm and in the case of the city of refuge it is i am not careful/ conscious enough about those around me. for this reason when one changes his mind in complete tshuva the sin is erased since the physical harm doesn’t come from you.

    #911744
    just my hapence
    Participant

    As WIY points out, there is missas neshika. Also, see Chagiga 5b concerning the malach hamoves sending out shluchim.

    nem621 – Whilst it is true that many acharonim (e.g. Chazon Ish) do say your sevoro, there are shittos that hold that you can kill someone even if HKB’H didn’t ‘want’ (k’vayochol) them to die. The Or Hachaim says so, as does the Zohar and Rambam, so it’s not a ‘kabbalistic vs. rationalist’ thing. It’s rather complicated and so the CR is probably not the place to discuss it.

    #911745
    Chortkov
    Participant

    nem621 – I am not ?? ????? suggesting anything contradictary to what you said — EVERYTHING that happens only happens with the will of Hashem, and everything is part of the Heavenly plan and full of ????? ?????, and I am only a pawn in HKB”Hs plan.

    In fact, the ???? ?????? ? says that HKBH arranges the different types of deaths (by bandits, animals, strangling, falling of a roof, etc) based on the Four types of death which one can be punished with by the Jewish Court of Law.

    My question was in a case where I do go kill him, am I killing him myself or am i just the robot performing the death but the Malach Hamoves is actually taking the life?

    #911746
    Chortkov
    Participant

    It is possible that one can answer:

    The Rambam in Moreh Nevuchim brings that just like Hashem constantly ‘pumps’ life in to each of us, and if C”V He would stop for an instant, we would no longer live, so to He pumps Death into all those dead.

    The Rogatchover writes from there that Death is not just the abscence of Life; we always SEE dead people who die staight after Life, yet there is also a concept of somebody who is ??? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? — Gone from the state of alive but not yet entered the state of death.

    (He says that all ????? ????? performed by the ?????? were people who were not yet DEAD but rather simply NOT ALIVE.)

    He brings a proof from the fact that Hashem opens on Rosh Hashono the Book of Life and the Book of Death. Why is this neccesary? Simply write the names of those destined to live in the Book of Life, and the others would simply not be included?

    We see from here that besides for life, there is a new creation called Death.

    I have no idea if this bears any semblance to truth, but possibly when I kill a person, i can take him out of the LIFE stage, but

    the ???? ???? is what brings him into the Death stage.

    (For more proofs to the Rogitchovers chiddush, see the Ramban by ???? ???? ???, the ???”? about ???? and ??? ?????? and the Gemoros which speak about ??? ???? – i hope to follow with some more Mareh Mekomos)

    #911747
    Chortkov
    Participant

    The ???”? is in ???? ?????? ?”? ?”?. (See also ??”? ???? ????? ??? ?’ ??? ??? ???? ?????)

    The Rogotchover is in ???? ???? ?? ????? ?”? ??’ ?, (See proof brought there from ????? ??”?; see also ???? ??? ??”? ??’ ??”?).

    The Ramban ????? ??”? says that there are three stages in ????: A) ????? ???? ??, B) ????? ???? and C) ??? ??? ????.

    #911748
    Health
    Participant

    just my hapence -“nem621 – The Or Hachaim says so, as does the Zohar and Rambam, so it’s not a ‘kabbalistic vs. rationalist’ thing.”

    I think the Maharal holds this way too.

    #911749
    nem621
    Member

    yekke2 that a very nice it all made perfect sense unlike most things people say where you have to make it fit

    #911750
    just my hapence
    Participant

    yekke2 – I hear what you say, but am not sure I completely understand it. What is life? What is death? And what is a person who is neither alive nor dead – a zombie? A ghost? A vampire? If you are not alive (i.e. you have no life in you) what are you if not dead? If death is not yetzias haneshomo then what is it? And if it is yetzias haneshomo then surely if the neshomo is still there, the person is alive. So what is in between? How does this state of not alive or dead work vis-a-vis the neshomo? If you could clarify for me, that would be much appreciated.

    #911751
    Chortkov
    Participant

    Just my hapence — I can’t say I understand it; as I wrote earlier, what we see as death is straight from “life” as we know it into “death” as we know it. Because this happens, we cannot understand or even comprehend a concept of anything different – of an in-between stage where one is neither dead nor alive. This doesn’t mean on a life-support machine in a coma, nor does it mean clinically dead. It is a concept we cannot understand because we have never seen anything like it before.

    #911752
    Chortkov
    Participant

    By ??? ????, the entire Jewish Nation died by every Commandment they heard from ?. There is a big question posed by the ???????:

    1) Why were all the marriages in ??? ????? not finished from the when they died, like ???? ???? is always the end of a marriage? (????? ????? shouldn’t matter; the death of a husband is what finishes off the marriage. (See ???? ??????? ??? ? i think ?? ?”?) This is itself a huge issue, ???? ??? ?????)?

    2) Why were they not all ??? ?? (Again – a big debate whether the ???? of ?? is that something DEAD is ???? or that the death creates a ???? that will not leave until some form of ???? is done, regardless of whether the object is still in the form of death or life; I think there is a ?’ ???? ????????? about this, and a ?’ ????? ???? ???????, but I’m not sure exactly where)?

    3) According to those ????? (I will ??? ??? quote sources for all this later) that after ???? one is not ?????? ?????? anymore [even if one springs back to life], why where they ?????? in ?????? (Although one can answer that the ????? there only came after their rebirth, because they were at ??? ????)

    Using this ????, one can answer that they didn’t enter the third final ‘DEATH’; rather their state of Life ended. (And ????? ??, ???? ???? and ???? ?????? are all ???? on full death).

    #911753
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Shaala 2 is a question put to Rebbe Yehoshua in Alexandria, towards the end of Nida. Check there to see what he called this question. I wonder what he would have said about many other, similar, Yeshivishe Qlerrs.

    #911754
    Chortkov
    Participant

    Some ???? ?????? i didn’t write before:

    1) About ????? ?? there is a ???? ??? ?”?, where the Gemoro speaks about if after ????? ????? we will all be ???, and also discusses the ?? ??????? who was revived after death – and the ???? answers that the issue will be resolved when ???? comes with ??? ?????.

    2) The ???”? i quoted is in ??? ?’ ??’ ?”? ??? ?, where he is ????? a ????”? ??? ?”? says that after a man is revived, he has no ????? anymore.

    3) The ???? ???? ??”? ?? ?”? ??”? speaks about ???? ???? and ????? ?????, and he concludes that the ????? finishes. (See ??????? ????? ?”?). See also ??? ????? ????? ? where ?’ ???? was killed and then revived about the ???? ????? ?? after ????? ?????.

    (The ??? ???? ?”? ?? ? ???”? pushes away the proofs of the ???? ????)

    — See also ??”? ????? ??”? ????? ?”? ????? ??????? ??’ ??”? ??”? ????? ??????? ????? ??? ?”? ??????? ??? ?.

    4) About the ???? ???? – according to the ????? that before ??? ???? they were ??? ??, it could be that by a ?? ?? has no ???? ???? ????, as is the ???? of the ??? ????? ??????? ?”?, (see ???? ????? ?”? ??? ? who argues) – and they only became Jews after ??? ????.

    5) The ??? ???? ???? ?”? ??”? says that although there should have been a need for new marriages, ? specifically said after ??? ???? the extra verse: ??? ??? ???????, which the ???? darshens to mean ???? with their wives. According to him, we don’t need our ?????, because there was a special exception to the rule.

    (See ????”? ???? ?)

    #911755
    Chortkov
    Participant

    I just searched on Hebrewbooks.org for some ???? ?????? about ????? ?????, and i found:

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=48329&st=%d7%9e%d7%99+%d7%a9%d7%9e%d7%aa+%d7%95%d7%a7%d7%9d&pgnum=151&hilite=7fbf6dda-8e11-4814-866d-986c1018007b

    ?????? ??? ????? ? — ?, ???? ???? ?? ? ??.

    #911756
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    yekke2 –

    The Rambam doesn’t say what you said he does.

    #911757
    Kozov
    Member

    1) The (Magen Avraham in) Zayis Raanon (on Yalkut Shimoni) asks a similar question. It says ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???. What is the need for ??? ????? He says it fits according to Shmuel who holds ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ????. Or, he answers, it’s a Mitzva (/Gzeiras HaKasuv -Minchas Chinuch 520).

    2) The Shach (Sifsei Kohen, Parshas Shoftim) says even though the Rambam holds like Shmuel to a certain extent, he surely wouldn’t hold there would be killing in the times of Mashiach (even unintentionally, because it is implied in Makos 10:2 that a person unintentionally kills a person who killed intentionally, and when Mashiach comes there will be no people who kill intentionally, left to be killed, even unintentionally. And the Rambam says “?? ???? ??? ?????” and “?? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?? ? ????”. -Lubavitcher Rebbe.) See the Shach’s answer ?? ??? ???? that ???? is ????? ??????.

    3) The Maskil Lidavid (on Rashi) states that (though in his opinion according to Shmuel the Pasuk is understandable,) according to the other Man Diamar there obviously needs to be an explanation for the need for ??? ???? in the times of Mashiach as he says ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? and it is stated ??? ???? ????. He offers that the ????? and promise of no killing and similar ?????? only applies to Yidden of those times, not to those who will become Geirim then.

    #911758
    Kozov
    Member

    4) There is also the authoritative position of the Arizal (whose teachings are from Eliyahu Hanavi), that all of Hevel’s gilgulim need Tikun through death (like he himself needed), and the Ir Miklat is Michaper and Misaken for those who kill them unintentionally. If we merit that Mashiach comes before “its time” which means before the Tikun is finished (when there won’t be any death at all since ??? ???? ????), there will be a need for (even more) Arei Miklat (and hence the word “??”). But if Mashiach comes in “its time,” after the Tikun is finished, there will be no need for the Arei Miklat. Either way, there will not be any intentional killing and the unintentionall killing will fit into the “Ina Liyado” in Makos 10:2. The Arizal is quoted by the Zayis Raanon and the Maskil Lidovid.

    5) The Maskil Lidovid also cites the Shalah. The Shalah proves that not all of the great successes prophesized will be at one time, there may be different periods, but eventually, there will be no death at all.

    6) The Alshich offers a similar explanation as the Arizal.

    So in response to your question about the Malach Hamaves, maybe Hashem will Shecht the Malach Hamaves after people finish killing unintentionally, after the Tikun of Hevel is finished, at a later period.

    And a person with ????? ????? can ?”? be mafsik someone from Torah and then let the ???? ???? finish the job.

    But you may be right, since I have no idea what the Malach Hamaves is and how it works.

    #911760
    Chortkov
    Participant

    Kozov – Thanks alot! I had the same answer about the fact that somebody can stop the other from learning and let the ???? ???? go on from there.

    And – I also have no idea what the ???? ???? is and how it works!

    #911761

    yekke2: you made my week with that Rogatchover. I recall seeing or hearing a similar idea in Parshas Korach about the mageifah stopping even by the people who were dying but not dead yet.

    #911762
    Chortkov
    Participant

    The ???”? himself actually argues, but brings the ???? of the ??????, which the ??”? holds ?????.

    (???? ?????? ?”? ?”?… ?”? ????? ?????? ?’ ?”?)

    #911763
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    In Sanhedrin 92b it is Mashma that (at least in Olam Hazeh) someoen who is revived from the dead is Mechuyav in Mitzvos. Otherwise, their Tefillin wouldn’t be Kosher, and they wouldn’t be able to marry.

    Now I see that the Ritva you mentioned actually uses this to prove that they are Mechuyav when they get up. Perhaps the Diyuk you are talking about is the Shita that the Ritva is quoting. Although I have to say, it is hard to be Medayek from the on ewho is asking on them. For all you know their answer will be to be Mechalek between Olam Hazeh and the future Techiyas Hameisim. One is an Olam Chadash while the other is a reversal of Misa, maybe.

    #911764
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    About the two stages of Misa, the Gemara in Chagiga discusses the difference between dying and finishing the life span. The Malach Hamoves explained that there are times when a person is taken before his time, in which case his Ruach hangs around until his time. This would explain the ghost phenomenon, that the reported sightings are usually from murdered people. Since they were taken before their time they are still hanging around.

    #911765
    Chortkov
    Participant

    I dunno if anybody here reads Harry Potter, but this may explain the Kings Cross chapter in Book 7.

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