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??? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????
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(?”? ??: ?”? if you can explain this line to me you will make my month)
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Did the gemarah really have a hava amina that every time a cheresh, shoteh, v’koton’s shor is nogach someone R’ Yaakov has to pay chetzi nezek?
And then the gemarah asks what he did to deserve to have to pay yenem’s nezek??
When you think about it, the gemara has a very robust structure for preserving the mesorah and keeping track of every change due to takanos, pointing out chisurei mechsera even when obvious, etc. Every single change from how it was received has to be rigorously accounted for. In that light, the gemara doesn’t actually have a hava amina, it’s recording where it corrected an obvious garbling of the Mesora. (Isn’t it mind boggling when you think of how few of those there are?)
I don’t believe in that answer. Can you give another example of a “garbling” of the mesorah?
I never understood chisurei mechserah were chisronos in the mesorah. Rather, because of yiridos hadoros or some other reason,we needed more words added to the mesorah in order to understand it the way it was originally intended without those added words.
I’m sorry for derailing the thread. That shtickel gemarah always sits in my pocket and since I had a reason to take it out I thought I may as well ask.
I will rerail the thread from where it left off.
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Wow, haven’t been to the CR in a loong time! Looks like fun:
Kodesh Hee Lachem, Shabbos Hamalkah.
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deiyezooger’s answer is a lot better than mine, though I will get back to you with a list of places where the gemara reconstructs details of wording.
Can I derail it with another two random questions?
1- In Yoma, the gemara gives a klal that every time someone turned during certain avodos, they would go yemin l’mizrach. This would involve the kohen turning his back to the heichal multiple times for each korban. What is the mailah of yemin l’mizrach that is docheh kavod? (I’m learning Yoma)
2- According to the mishna in Parah, the sreifas haparah has to be done chutz l’3 machanos. During Bayis sheini the paros were done on har hamishcha which was inside Yerushalaim which has a din like machaneh yisrael in the desert. How?
OK, shkeyach, now back to the game.
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I don’t think deiye was answering the question. He was bringing how Rashi explains the shaila of ???? ??????, which was:
Why did Rav Yaakov say he has to ‘pay chetzi nezek” instead of just saying that he’s ‘chayav’.
It doesn’t speak about the hava amina of the gemarah that Rav Yaakov should have to pay chetzi nezek at all.
If anyone has access to a ????? ?? ?????? he might talk about it.
Can you give ?”? for your two kashyas?
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Derech: Alright. Didn’t think to check there. The shul I learn in has one, I’ll check it out tonight.
For the sources, yemin l’mizrach is in Yoma 5a, among other places in that perek. I have to look for the Parah Aduma.
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The gemarah in 58b learns out this din of yemin l’mizrach (the l’mizrach is only agav orcha- mizrach is only possible by zevachim -Rashi) from a posuk in Divrei HaYomim.
I imagine that if you are going to turn it is better to turn right- to the side of chesed, than left -to din. But either way, Rami bar Yechezekel makes this lumid and the gemarah says that everyone has it.
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I’m not questioning the din, I’m asking why it should be docheh k’vod shechinah of not turning ones back to the beis hamikdash, which we see as halacha in many places. These things usually have some svara behind it, especially since Rami Bar Yechezkel’s limud seems like an asmachta.
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???? ????? ????? ????? – i don’t know if I spelled it right, or if it fits – mitzvah gedolah le’hiot be’simcha
I understand. The only svara that I could think of is that since he’s oisek in a mitzvah that might also be called “kvod shomayim” he might be puter from kavod hashechina. Like in shul if someone is holding one of the sifrei Torah he doesn’t get up with the rest of the shul when the other sefer Torah is picked up. Unless you tell me that the din applies even during other avoidah, that’s what I would say.
Then once he’s allowed to turn his back, comes the din that he should turn right instead of left. That’s my own svara though, I really don’t know otherwise.
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We see that the kohen gadol walks out backwards on yom kippur which would be mashma not like you. Then again we see that the leviim stand on the duchan with their backs to the heichal and that half the kohanim using the kiyor did the same. So it seems that your svara is good.
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Maybe a kohein gadol on yom kippur is different because he’s coming out of the kodesh kedoshim? It could be that there’s a difference between putting your back to the outside of the heichal and coming out of the heichal backwards.
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That’s what I was thinking. We have two precedents for turning your back vs. one for not and that one has exceptional circumstances. Of course, one is supposed to walk out of the azara backwards unless hurrying out because of tumah (RaMBaM hilchos bi’as hamikdash).
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Hu Elokeinu, Hu Avinu
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