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?? ???????? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ?”? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ??
.???? ?”?
This is true. You see, you think that some people make more and some people make less, but after tuition, everyone is the same.
Funny!
Then why can’t I afford a Lexus?
My my, is this your first tuition bill?
Welcome to the club!
Nobody could. The difference is who buys it.
Something to contemplate.
LOL
Tuition is NOT ????? ???? ?????? ???? (and my Rov agrees). This would include a tutor, but tuition includes many things besides Limud. Perhaps it would cover that portion of your tuition that is paid to your son’s (only a son) Rebbe proportional to the number of children in the class.
For example, if the rebbe gets paid 40K and there are 20 children in the class, then 2K of tuition is ????? ???? ?????? ???? , and the rest is not.
Gavra, I don’t understand that. Since in order to have them allow my child in the class, I must pay a lot more than 2k, why shouldn’t it all count?
Also, is there a nafka mina?
gavra_at_work: that’s interesting. I always thought tuition would be considered hotzaos. Although I’d have to agree with your rav that paying a huge amount for tuition wouldnt be considered hotzaos cuz only a portion of it is actually for your child while the rest is to make up for a portion of someone else’s tuition.
Gavra, I don’t understand that. Since in order to have them allow my child in the class, I must pay a lot more than 2k, why shouldn’t it all count?
Also, is there a nafka mina?
Not really. It would be similar to a Rebbe who charges 2K, but a Mafia-type forces you to pay an extra 3K “Or else” (At least that is what I think. YMMV).
For a practical NM, ask your LOR. Possibly a chesbon in sending to one school that has nicer facilities over another.
Why, is maintenance for a building for you kid to learn in not hotzaos?
Is an administration for the school not hotzaos?
I get it that english classes aren’t.
And perhaps you’ll argue that other people’s kids isn’t, but that is straight up tzedaka at the worst.
They all don’t pay for actual Limud. Yes Tzedaka is good, but it also isn’t Schar Limud and has its own Halachos.
Gavra, does that mean you wouldn’t count transportation expenses? I most definitely would.
As far as a nicer facility, it would count if it helped him learn better, otherwise it wouldn’t.
Hotzaos is all encompassing. I would assume that with regard to Shabbos the transportation is included and you may shop where you want you don’t have to look for bargains and get it on sale and shop in the cheapest store around. Same thing for schar limud.
DY: I probably would as well. They are not Nogeih in my case.
PBA: I don’t agree. You call pool resources without a Yeshiva (as they did in Europe).
Gavra, then you should also count what you refer to as other kids s’char limud, since it’s a necessary expense in order to get your son into the class. And yes, I would say the same thing if the Mafia forced you to give an extra thousand. If that’s what you need to do, it counts.
And what they did in Europe is not nogeia, because that option is not available to you.
WIY, I disagree. If you don’t shop for bargains (within reason), it’s not a hotzo’oh for Shabbos, it’s a hotzo’oh for your laziness. If you choose a yeshiva which is better for your son’s learning, however, even if it’s more expensive, it’s a legit hotzo’oh for Talmud Torah.
DY: L’shitascha, it is just “laziness” that people don’t pool together money to hire a Kollel guy to teach their children. Mah Shein Kein by travel, where the Rebbe in some way or fashion has to be brought to the talmidim, so it is a necessary expense. If the Mafia foced you to pay extra for a specific yeshiva vs. some other option, that (IMHO) would not count either. Perhpas it would if they made you pay to be able to have any form of Limud.
Just because someone makes you pay it doesn’t make it “necessary”.
I think we all don’t have a clue what we are talking about on this issue.
PBA: More Hashkafa than anything else. See my note to DY regarding what I consider “necessary expenses”, which I agree are included. I’m just using Akuperma’s definition of “necessary”.
I asked Rav Neustadt and was told that all expenses with regard to tuition are included. Without the additional administrative fees the Rebbe wouldn’t be able to teach so the whole tuition is considered Hotzaos. Also Rashi on that Gemara says that whatever you are ragil in spending is included so if it’s a minhag to pay extra for all the other stuff included in tuition then it’s part of Hotzaos.
WIY: Thank you for your valuble input. I assume that means the full cost, including Limmudei Chol?
Gavra, in many cases I would include limudei chol.
I was told that R’ Shach holds that nowadays even BY tuition is included.
It’s not realistic for me as an individual to change our educational structure, but it is realistic for me to control my shopping habits.
Your’e welcome. Yes the full tuition. Thats what he said. I dont know what would be if the tuition is broken up into Hebrew and English with the option not ot pay for English.
In times of the Gemara, any limud Torah for girls was at best optional. Today, with the alternative being public school, BY is a chiyuv. Also, IIRC, one of the rishonim holds that any hotzo’oh for a mitzvah is included. Maybe R’ Schach is going with that. I’ll try to look it up; it’s supposed to be printed.
Does anyone know if R’ Shach’s Letters are available anywhere online?
In times of the Gemara, any limud Torah for girls was at best optional. Today, with the alternative being public school, BY is a chiyuv.
The alternative is not public school, but homeschooling, just like they did in the Alter Heim.
P.S. That’s not to say one should not send to BY (or jewish girls school), CV. Just that public school would not be an alternative.
Again, you’re being idealistic. It’s not realistic for most people.
PBA: You misspelled the name of the Masechta. 😛
PBA: ROFL. Amazing move by whatever mod edited that. Well done.
What are you guys talking about?
DY: It said “Beiah” at first. I was making a joke.
EDIT: And now it’s Hebrew. Someone’s having a laugh and I’m very much appreciating it.
You’re welcome.
Oh, okay. In any event, Sam, nice to see you pop in.
DY: Yeah, been busy. Just check in once every few days and haven’t really been following any full threads. I’m a bit overworked ATM.
Overworked ATM?!?
Sound like fun, like you’re spitting out $20s by the minute. (where are you located, save a few for me)
I love how the mods add their responses to posts in bold. Like a bas Kol =D
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