כחי ועצם ידי

I don’t understand the anti Zionism. Can’t we just love Jews? Sinas chinam is the reason we don’t have moshiach. Ahavas chinam is the solution. And of course it was king David who said G-d is with me through my helpers. G-d seems to want to protect the Jewish people through the IDF. What a lack of koros tov not to be thankful to them for acting as G-ds shluchim. A chutzpah.

wtsp, I admire that you noticed this cognitive dissonance. Maybe, the solution is other way around: if you see your fellow Jews being mosser nefesh to protect other Yidden and often have tremendous hatzloha, and they include a lot of shomer shabbos Yidden – maybe you can think how you can contribute instead of oppose?

keith:
So, how come anti-Zionists are so reviled by “Modern Orthodoxy”, then?
The Zionists are not G-d’s messengers; the Zionists are the greatest rebels against G-d. G-d protects His people despite, not with, the evil Zionists.

First off, not all the Israeli agree with the OP. There were so many videos shared of IDF soldiers davening, learning, and more. They 100% believe that we need Hashem’s help in all this.
But now I think of some of the posts from one of the leading haters on this site, HaKatan, He loves to claim that there was nothing miraculous about Israel’s victory in the Six Day War, and it shouldn’t be celebrated. Clearly, he’s the one who doesn’t believe in Hashem’s involvement. He believes that it’s all about the natural strength, and that’s what should be recognized.
What an apikores.

@WTSP

Makes no sense what your saying !!

The reason why we don’t thank hashem for Israel’s success is PRECISELY BECAUSE we are anti zionist.

What you’re saying is extremely zionist. Why would we give gratitude to hashem if we are anti zionist????

Such backwards, opposite thinking. This whole thread is based on a TOTALLY corrupted understanding of anti zionism.

You can actually work on both at the same time. Recognize that all our success comes from Hashem and also work on developing Hakaoras Hatov to the brave fighters in the IDF who are moser nefesh constantly in many ways (risking life, giving up parnasa, family life, loss of Torah learning, etc). If you have trouble with this mussar excercise try to focus on one each week and switch off.

Bhatzlacha!

I can do these three at once:
1. Thank Hashem for my child’s medical recovery.
2. Thank the doctors and Hatzalah for putting tremendous efforts into being Hashem’s shluchim (especially if they put their lives on the line with mesiras nefesh).
3. Strongly disagree with certain ideologies held by those doctors or Hatzalah members.

We do these three things all the time. Business, health, community safety, and even thanking the mailman.

DaMoshe:
The pro-Zionist idolaters (like you) are the actual “haters”, who support the shmad “State” that was and is the greatest rebellion against G-d, the Torah and His people and is responsible for the spiritual loss of untold millions of Jews over multiple generations under their control.

More facts:
It is not I who “loves to claim” that the Zionist victory in their war in 1967 was not miraculous. The holy Satmar Rav (verboten in your haskala world, I know) wrote that explicitly. And it is simply the fact, if you read the history and other books and writings on the subject and even ask the wicked Zionists (and read their words at the time), that the Zionist victory in their war in 1967 was predicted by the intelligence agencies and the Zionists themselves knew it.

Of course, Jews who believe in only G-d (unlike Zionist idolaters who also believe in their idol), certainly believe that G-d could have ended the Zionist experiment in that war and delivered a loss to the Zionists, had He wanted to do that. But only fools (or idolaters) claim that the Zionist victory was a miracle when it factually was a conventional military victory.

@simcah613

where did @Hakatan ever say the zionists are terrible for not attributing their military success to G-d?

Saying G-d was behind the aveiras of the IDF would be kefira in the idea of “schar v’onesh”. While, we know that there is no koach except for Hashem , we don’t attribute one’s aveiras to Him on the level of hashgaha prutis. Rather, one is fully liable for his aveiras.

This thread, quite frankly, is pure idiocy.

Small One, you are not convincing anyone. You, just like the Satmar Rebbe, are blinded by your hatred for Israel. You are not thinking rationally. The Satmar Rebbe was so blinded by hatred that it caused the deaths of almost all his followers in Europe. This is what you want to glorify?
You can keep posting your twisted views here, but as I said, you’re not convincing anyone. If I had to guess, most people here just view you as a pathetic hypocrite.

@simcha

You can only twist something if it exists first.

The impression katan is giving here that besides a broken record , there isn’t much more.

No answers to questions , no independent torah thinking , no understanding of ideas and putting principles into context, no sense of reality and the list goes on ….
.
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WTSP- Besides being illogical, it is WRONG to make a generalization about all zionists that they are all against the Torah and being a zionist is asur and bad. Also, who said that all of the Rabbanim are against serving in the idf and zionism? Although you’re right that most charaidi Rabbanim would probably say that Israel should not have been founded and it is true that the original zionists as well as many leftists now were very anti religious and hated the frum jews, the Rabbanim would not agree now. Since Israel is already a state, we need to protect the jews inside which means serving in the army (obviously only if your not in yeshiva) and there are many frum zionists who the Rabbanim have nothing against because they have the right values and priorities. Also, being a zionist now does not mean you agree with everything the government does or did- it just means your proud to live in our holy homeland.

wtsp > The one and only thing I will openly express hatred toward is APIKORSUS, that which the Israeli government stands for and promotes.

government is a group of people. I don’t think you have problem with these specific people – they are similar to other people, I don’t think you hate everyone like them. As for them being in the government – they did not get there by force. They got elected by majority of citizens of Israel – same way as governments of other democratic countries (and I am not going to presume that you prefer Iran/Russia/China). Most governments we live in are far from perfect. We do not hate them, generally. We were for centuries saying brochos for even worse governments. So, it seems that the main frustration is due to the fact that the majority of those voters are Jewish – and they did not vote your way. I understand your feelings, and it is would be strange if a Jew did not feel any hesaron that exists in a Jewish country. So, the source of your frustration is, ironically, your own Zionism: you expect (justifiably) more from a Jewish country that from other countries you could live in.

One way to decrease your frustration: if you slightly increase your circle of acceptance who is amecha, you would realize that at this point observant and masorti Jews all together are probably a majority of Jewish Israelis – something that was not the case 80 years ago. So, if stop pushing them away, you might actually improve the matzav by purely democratic means.

wtsp: so since we have to give thanks to Hashem for the victories that He gave to the Israeli army, are you in favor of saying Hallel on Yom Ha’atzmaut and Yom Yerushalaim, as many religious Zionists do? That is giving thanks to Hashem, and recognizing that the victories came from Him.

wtsp,
I am not sure why POLITICAL MOVEMENT, STATEHOOD , SELF-DETERMINATION are problematic concepts in general, unless you make some additional assumptions?

aguda is a POLITICAL MOVEMENT
STATEHOOD is every state in the world.
SELF-DETERMINATION is something Jews always pursued even within other states (Vaad Arba Artzos, Ghettos. R Shimshon Hirsh’s kehilla)

AAQ:
As he stated, Zionism contains all of those components: Political Movement, Statehood and Self-Determination.
Your response was, essentially, that these three are not conceptually problematic.
So, by that logic, since Judaism is a religion, that must mean that Religion in conceptually good. Therefore, that would imply that a Jew being part of any Religion would be okay, which is obviously not true.

So, that’s silly. Of course, it is the details/implementation of a particular concept that determine whether or not that implementation is problematic.

Moreover, Statehood is indeed inherently problematic for Jews prior to Moshiach’s coming, according to all Torah authorities. So, the fact that all the gentiles have States (all over the world) doesn’t make Statehood inherently innocuous, just something that is okay for gentiles and very much not okay for Jews. We, of course, have a Torah, and that Torah forbids Jewish statehood prior to Moshiach’s coming, as mentioned.

As to the other two: a political movement that is (at least in theory) backed by Torah authorities (like Agudah) is okay. But one that is engineered by heretics from the ground up to destroy Judaism and Torah (that would be Zionism, of course) is obviously not comparable to Agudah. The Self-Determination point is a little more subtle. Having *communal* autonomy under the overall political control of Esav in Esav’s lands (as was pursued in Europe by Rav Hirsch and others and also what should have happened in Mandatory-Palestine) is very, very different than (the wicked Zionists) fighting endless wars against the British (first) and the Arabs and others to create and maintain an “independent” pseudo-State.

wtsp > We are obligated to, and should naturally feel, appreciation and tremendous gratitude toward them for all they do. Yet we can’t appreciate them while failing to recognize that all their successes are straight from הקב”ה – He is the One we should be thanking first and foremost.

finally a statement that I think most here can agree with. Thanks for the post (and thanks Hashem for increasing shalom between Yidden).

This is a shortcoming of every news article, not just the ones about Israel. Every news article implies natural causes instead of Hashem. The Antizionists are just as much a tool of Hashem as the Zionists. YWN should add a disclaimer to EVERY news article that “Hashem runs the world”. But people only complain when it’s Israel doing the winning.

Lernt > Every news article implies natural causes instead of Hashem. … But people only complain when it’s Israel doing the winning.

exactly. Nobody denies overall problems with modern culture. We are all assimilated in many aspects. It is not just using phones, internet, and now chatgpt … Look at how we debate here. Modern debate is based on free speech – all arguments are allowed – and then use Roman “caveat emptor” principle to figure out who is honest and who is not. If you are, on the other hand, raised on Talmudic discussions, you should learn how to make truth the center of your argument, respect your opponent, provide relevant information, investigate your own biases, etc.

So, how come we see here even most “anti-modern” posters having no problem presenting skewed information, crooked logic, and other non-Jewish methods of argument. I presume because we all got used to lies and exaggeration everywhere in the media…

Don’t come here ( YWN CR) for an authoritative view of Hashkafah.

“2) the belief in schar and onesh that nothing good is gained from choosing an aveira.“

What does that mean? In this week’s parsha בני ישראל didn’t trust Hashem and said He hates us and they got 40 years of מן, באר, & ענני הכבוד!