- This topic has 153 replies, 18 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 2 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
In a typical piece of lettuce, there is easily more than 60 against the aphids and thrips on it. Why the kashrus issue?
Baal Habooze- If everything is cold there is nothing to be concerned with. All are fine. If the onions were raw and by mashing you are actually cutting through the onions then the onions would be milchig. I remember seeing somewhere (Chochmos Adom?) that if you cut an onion with a milchig knife on a fleishig plate the plate would be get bliyos of milk as well.
yitayningwut- I dont remember off hand where 60 in the contents of the pot times the pot itself is mentioned, but I’m pretty sure its on the page (Taz, Shach, etc) and more than once.
Jothar- ????
The Shach and Taz agree that rui l’hischabed is dependent on time and place so why do the poskim specify what it is?
Misbatzos Zahav (9) gives two possible reasons:1)whatever the Gemara and poskim brings down as rui l’hischabed is forever even if one doesn’t think so,and l’chumrah whatever people call rui l’hischabed it is not batel even though it is not mentioned in poskim.2) Whatever the Gemara and poskim say is held until it is clear that it is not anymore,and everything else is not rui l’hischabed until it is clear that it is.The Misbatzos Zahav says in a case of issurei D’Rabbanan one should follow the second one.
Carmine- yes, the piske teshuvos brings down it’s muttar. There’s a pri megadim who says chazusa belo taama milsa hi in the part that discusses chazusa- it’s been years but i’ll try to find it tonight Kashrus agencies hold treif, based on Minchas Yitzchok, vol.3, 96, but chashuveh people say muttar.
This is from Rabbi kaganoff, good maareh mekomos:
The boldness of a color announces its existence. Can we say that a color is bateil when we clearly see evidence of its existence?
Several great halachic authorities discuss this question, reaching widely different conclusions. Some prohibit consumption of the resultant product precisely because one can notice its existence (Pri Megadim, Mishbetzos Zahav 100:1; Minchas Kohen, Sefer HaTaaroves 3:3, quoted by Darkei Teshuvah 102:30). They contend that bitul can only happen when the offending item leaves no trace. A colorant is by definition very noticeable and therefore not bateil. According to this approach, all of the juice drinks mentioned must be recalled since the non-kosher ingredient is very noticeable.
On the other hand, the Vilna Gaon argues that determining whether the food is kosher depends on whether one can taste the treif ingredient (Yoreh Deah 102:6). In our instance, although the color is noticeable, no one tastes the colorant, and therefore the finished product is permitted, assuming that the admixture was made in error. An earlier authority, the Minchas Yaakov (74:5), also espouses this position.
Some authorities concluded a position between these two positions, comparing our question to a Gemara that discusses whether someone who stole dye and cloth and now returns the dyed fabric fulfills his mitzvah of returning what he stole. The Gemara rules that this depends on whether the dye is considered to still exist after it has been used because its color is still noticeable (Bava Kamma 101a). Is the color on the cloth treated as if the dye itself still exists, or did the dye become bateil and no longer exists?
Last q from me:
A frum couple has a goyishe baysitter home all day. They sternly warn her not to use the kitchen or she will get fired, and then they both leave to work/kollel/school, leaving the baysitter at home by herself. Is the kitchen kosher (mirsas) or treif (no mirsas)?
The Shach holds we do not trust a k’faila nochri today because he would lie.The Levush holds that we do not trust him because he cannot tell the difference nowadays.What nafka minah comes from this?
yitayningwut- Let me make sure I am understanding this right. Are you saying that there is no longer a need for separate ovens and milchig and fleishig can be cooked in the same oven one after the other? And even if the oven has mamushes it wouldnt matter because zeiah isnt an issue?
Jothar: wouldn’t there be a nafka minah if she was babysitting for only their family of if she is for the whole community(reputation)?
Now I understand why it’s one safek.
In the case of the babysitter, they were away from home all day and never checked up. Thus, no yotzei venichnas, and she can be assumed to be treifing up the house.
I originally assumed like you that based on rov keilim I would be allowed to eat in such a house if extended an invite. But my rav advised me against it. Certainly nobody can have a goyishe babysitter lechatchila without checking up on her.
The Shach holds that an efroch is not a bria,How would the Mechaber explain that it is a bria?
The problem with using the same oven is that spills happen and get absorbed by the pots put in the oven.
It hit me this morning that the problem with the house with the goyishe babysitter could be ikva issura so all keilim are treif.
yitayningwut- Can you please explain to me how he will understand ???? ?? ???? ? ????? Appears to substantiate zeiah and ????? ???? says its assur, not a chumra? (I know its not on your test but have a look)
yitayningwut: I think the Mateh Yonasan is learning it is the egg, the difference is that the egg becomes a new bria because of the embryo that developed inside the egg and it is asssur until it hatches and that is how it is assur mitchilas briaso.(which meforshim are you referring to?)
When can a bria become batel?
Hmm…let me go hock my rabbi again.
yitayningwut: Doesn’t the Kreisi Upleisi hold batel b’1200,and the Rosh and Rashba on Yerushalmi Terumah hold 960?(the rate your going you will do great on the test)
The Taz(8) regarding different intention not to mevatal issur l’chatchila is mutar,but if it is a psik reisha and we learn these halchas(shogeg and mazid) from shabbas how can it be mutar?
Sam4: It’s an entirely different type of issue. Assuming there is no inherent Issur of being Mevatel Lechatchila (some seem to assume there is but Pashtus is like that; Pashtus is that if I am intentionally Mevatel something that I’m going to throw out anyway there is no problem) so even though there is a P’sik Reisha that it will become Mevutal there is no P’sik Reisha that an Issur will be done.
Igros Moshe YD 2:24 goes to great lengths to prove that the Shellac is Muttar beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Shellac- IIRC, it’s muttar because it has no taste and is mixed with other ingredients, so it’s battul berov. Either he doesn’t consider the glaze to be a chazusa or he’s mattir carmine.
This is a hot-potato question and very current- can a Jewish company make strawberry jelly out of unchecked strawberries? What are possible factors to permit/forbid? What if they were washed but not guaranteed clean?
Thank you sam2 and yitay didnt have an answer,still not so clear but makes sense.
????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ????????
?
Yitay: You have to check. I don’t know the Metzius by strawberries but I heard someone claim that there is more than Shishim of bugs in strawberries.
Also: I believe just the other day I overheard someone mention that being Mevatel an Issur Lechatchila is an Issur D’Oraisa. I don’t recall where or why or how though. I was doing something else and just heard something like that in the background.
I have Spaghetti cooked in milchig pot the next day I want to warm this spaghetti up together with meatballs…. possible??
Sports: If the pot was not used in the previous 24 hours then it’s Muttar.
This thread is bittersweet… it brings back memories of the time when I was holding in these sugyas [redacted] years ago when I was sudying for semicha in [redacted] instead of being a working balabos.
Strawberries- your heter of not having intention to be mevatel wouldn’t work by a frum company. The most recent kashrus kurrents had something on this. Apparently this is big machlokes between the star k and the ou. I need to read through it.
At any rate, I had time this morning to pull out the old Friedman yoreh deah babab-taaruvos and look it over again
What is the case that we DO allow bittul issur lechatchila?
Before gelatin, a davar hamaamid, started being made from edible pig skin, it was made from treif animal bones, which are still assur. Yet, many chashuve poskim allowed gelatin (Rav Yecheskel Abramsky et al). What would their sevara be?
(note: yabia omer still allows gelatin from pigskin)
3 pieces of meat, 1 fatty 2 lean. 1 is treif. Is this min bemino or min beshe’eino mino?
What is the heter of bittul berov? Is it that the piece of meat is still treif but mistama we go by the rov? or does bittul berov turn the treif into kosher?
Out of your range (it’s in 110) but a layup for those who did it- are you allowed to come up with your own sfeik sfeika?
What is the differences in halacha between berya and chaticha hareuyah lehiskabeid in when they lose their status?
Who says pig bones are Assur? The marrow is Assur, the bones are not.
They are made from pig skin which is edible, and even more common in New York for eating than squirrels (which are a big rural delicacy):
Pork rind (known and invented in the United Kingdom as pork scratchings[1] , as a room-temperature snack, or crackling, served hot as part of a meal, and in Australia and New Zealand as pork crackle/crackling), is the fried or roasted skin (rind) of a pig. Frying melts most of the fat from the pork rind. Uncooked pork rind may be used as a fishing bait, or cooked with beans or stewed vegetables or in soups.
Bones- even though bones are indedible and not considered treif (unless they’re small and contain marrow) they are still assur to eat medirabanan.
Jothar: Do you have a source for this Issur D’Rabannan? I thought we always assume that because the bones, skin, and hooves are not themselves edible that we don’t consider them Treif. Maybe nowadays it would be different because people routinely eat skin. I would assume though that skin is inherently inedible and that we would just say Achsh’vei by skin eaten in certain ways. Who knows? Maybe pork rinds are actually Kosher? That would be an interesting thing to think about.
bones- I remember them being assur medirabbanan, but I’m not holding enough.
I see from the following links that my memory is based on the shach who holds that bones with a bit of moisture in them are still assur.
The following article agrees (mods plz let it thru thx):
http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/common/article/5467
Also quotes a mishna that pigskin is considered fully edible and is a treif meat product. Chicken skin is regularly consumed as well.
The following star-k article quotes the shach that only completely dry bones are muttar but any moisture in them is assur:
http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-palate-gelatin.htm
Here’s a good swipe from kashrut.com and by Rabbi Zushe Yosef Blech:
[It is beyond the scope of this article to delve into the details of the gelatin controversy, but a brief synopsis should help the reader understand the basic issues involved. Rav Chaim Ozer zt”l wrote a famous Teshuva, in which he permits gelatin based upon three considerations: (a) The hard bones from which the gelatin is produced are not considered meat, (b) because gelatin is considered a new product totally dissimilar from the original starting material (Ponim Chadashos), and (c) because gelatin is rendered inedible for a period of time during its processing (Nifsal M’Achila). The three authorities mentioned above, however, reviewed the matter and rejected this opinion for the following reasons: First, Rav Moshe Feinstein and Rav Aharon Kotler both held that bones from non-Kosher animals are not Kosher. Further, the argument is essentially academic since, even according to this approach, the bones would have to be completely clean, dry, and without marrow. Bones generally used for gelatin manufacture may have meat and marrow on them. In addition, most gelatins made today are produced from skins, which are not subject to this consideration. (Indeed, the Talmud (Chullin 122a) considers pigskins to be edible meat, and one need look no further than the snack section in the supermarket to note “Fried Pork Rinds” as proof!) As to the second consideration, the basis for the concept of Ponim Chadashos is a Rabbeinu Yonah, an opinion questioned by many authorities. Rav Moshe Feinstein further holds that Ponim Chadashos only applies to an Issur Yotzeh (an excretion from a forbidden animal) and not to parts of the animal itself. In addition, Rav Yechezkel Abramsky zt”l argues that gelatin is not even a “new creation”, but merely an edible extract that had always been present. As such, the concept of Ponim Chadashos does not apply according to these Poskim. As to the third consideration, the status of non-Kosher food that is Nifsal and then returned to an edible state is a longstanding question amongst the Poskim. Both Rav Feinstein and Rav Henkin rule that the matter remains a Safek (an unresolved Halachik issue), and one must therefore be strict in its regard. Rav Aharon Kotler argues forcefully that such material remains prohibited, and cites several additional reasons to prohibit gelatin. One is that since the processing of the gelatin was done with the intention of creating an edible product, the rule of inedible foods does not apply at all. Another is that even if the material would still be considered inedible, eating it intentionally would still be prohibited (Achshivay). He further argues that since gelatin is used to improve the food into which it is mixed, the fact that it itself may be inedible is of no consequence. It should be noted, however, that other authorities, notably Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank zt”l, and yb”l Rav Ovadia Yosef and Rav Eliezer Waldenberg shlit”a permit the use of regular gelatin based upon one or more of the above arguments. On the basis of these opinions, the Rabbanut in Israel does allow the use of certain types of gelatin produced from non-Kosher sources (primarily from dried bones). However, none of the Mehadrin Kosher certifications in Israel allow the use of this product, and the Rabbanut itself requires that products containing such questionable gelatin be clearly labeled as “permitted only for those who allow the use of gelatin”.]
yitayningwut, I believe it’s based on that it’s a davar maamid, so it can never be batel. It does add a smooth texture to products, which is why it is used. In addition to your sevaras, it’s at one point nifsal me’achila, and you can say panim chadashos. you and your rav are not to’eh bedvar mishnah (a ch”m phrase). Yabia Omer agrees. Even Reb moshe ZT”L, who assured gelatin from treif sources, held that kosher gelatin is parve. So you can’t say it’s meat.
In regards to carmine and gelatin, the mainstream kashrus organizations follow the machmirim, but you can definitely make a case fahkert.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.