December 13, 2012 8:55 am at 8:55 am #913444notasheepMember
AZ – can you please give me those numbers as fact? Because every year the birth rate is different – in some years there are more girls born overall than boys, and in some years it is the other way around. Hashem would not make a birth rate that would leave some people inevitably single when we are told quite clearly that everyone’s zivug is announced in Heaven before they are born. Very often it is a bechira thing, and people don’t even realise they have missed their zivug until it is too late.December 13, 2012 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #913445HealthParticipant
AZ -“Health: I addressed a comment you made which was both incorrect as well as a inaccurate representation of the age gap problem. I did not address anything you wrote on any other thread.”
And which comment was that? I further clarified my statements that my suggestions were for older females, not young girls.
Do you believe that a 35 y.o. woman should only marry another 35 y.o.? Maybe this is why I see so many women becoming spinsters -they think the same way. But I personally have no problem if 20 y.o. only went out with other 20 y.o.!
And btw, with all your Rabbonim & RY’s behind you – your Takanas aren’t being listened to, at least not in my community. Here in Lakewood esp. BMG, I see many guys marrying younger girls. This is fact, not speculation.December 13, 2012 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #913447AZParticipant
The only comment i reffered to was what you wrote earlier in this thread.
“if the problem is that there are more girls BORN than boys.”
This is both factually incorrect and a inaccurate representation of what the org is out to rectify.
G-D didn’t create this problem. it’s not based on their being more girls born than boys (despite what health wrote).
I won’t bore the rest of the CR with restating the simply concept that is the age gap idea. If other would like to do so, by all means.
Alternatively, you might want to check out this weeks hamodia and yated there is a two page spread dealing with this issue.December 13, 2012 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #913448uneeqParticipant
“Alternatively, you might want to check out this weeks hamodia and yated there is a two page spread dealing with this issue.”
Where we can hear the same exact nonsense that you are spreading here. Great.December 14, 2012 2:50 am at 2:50 am #913449AZParticipant
I think you might want to speak to Rav Shteinman Rav Chaim Kanievsky Rav Gershon Edelstein Rav Shmuel Aurebach and the tens of other Gedolim and R”Y who are on that two page spread about the “nonsense” they are so concerned about.
I can assure you my name doesn’t appear there nor did i write anything that it says there.December 16, 2012 3:18 am at 3:18 am #913450Yekke Mitt a GartelMember
to answer some of the questions
Wolfish I didnt say kfira I saind “may border on kfira” The reason I said that was because a persons zivug is decided 40 days before birth (also I wrote I think bec Im not paskening and I wanted to here other opinions)
I didnt answer for a while cause I left the CR for a few days
rockyroad I saw the ad in a The voice of Lakewood (if you dont live in lakewood you can view it online athttp://www.thevoiceoflakewood.com/3dissue/120612/pageflip.html on page 128) though it may be in other placesDecember 16, 2012 3:29 am at 3:29 am #913451WolfishMusingsParticipant
Wolfish I didnt say kfira I saind “may border on kfira” The reason I said that was because a persons zivug is decided 40 days before birth
So what? The fact of the matter is that there *are* people who don’t get married. Would you say that people who don’t get married are “borderline kofrim” because they “ignored” the gemara which states that their zivig was decreed before birth?
The WolfDecember 16, 2012 4:38 am at 4:38 am #913452Yekke Mitt a GartelMember
didnt say that I said. the fact that they are saying that they cant get married because there is no one for them (and I’ll be chozer on the kfira aspect)December 16, 2012 4:58 am at 4:58 am #913453WolfishMusingsParticipant
(and I’ll be chozer on the kfira aspect)
Thank you. That’s all I was after.
The WolfDecember 16, 2012 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #913454
Yekke, can you provide a source which states that every person has a zivug?December 16, 2012 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #913455cantgetitMember
DY: Are you trying to say that a person does not have a zivug (or that a zivug is not set before birth)?December 16, 2012 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #913456N.GMember
Any girl who really want to get married will get married someday.December 16, 2012 10:45 pm at 10:45 pm #913457
I’m saying it’s not universal. Nowhere in Chaza”l (AFAIK) does it say that EVERYONE has a predestined zivug, and certainly not that everyone will marry.December 16, 2012 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #913458cantgetitMember
DY: Even according to the meforshims on zivugs, they say someone’s rightful zivug can be lost for whatever reasons.December 16, 2012 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #913459Torah613TorahParticipant
A mamzer can’t marry. Hence, is his zivug not called out?December 17, 2012 1:22 am at 1:22 am #913460
Cantgetit, true, but not everyone neccessarily started with a “rightful zivug”.
613, not true.December 17, 2012 1:42 am at 1:42 am #913461NaysbergMember
a mamzer can marry.December 17, 2012 5:53 am at 5:53 am #913462uneeqParticipant
DY: I don’t have knowledge in regards to everyone having a zivug, though there’s a small but interesting piece in the Chasam Sofer O”C 54 where he mentions that someone can lose their zivug.December 17, 2012 6:18 am at 6:18 am #913463OneOfManyParticipant
If you are going with the premise that everyone has a preordained match, then not only don’t I see where the kefira in that statement comes in, but I think you are logically forced to concede it… otherwise, how do you account for the missing halves of all the people that die before they manage to marry? (Don’t say they cancel each other out – that doesn’t really make sense.)December 17, 2012 12:24 pm at 12:24 pm #913464
Actually, it would make sense, but it’s just not true.
One could posit that everyone has a preordained zivug which could be lost through poor choices, and obviously the potential spouse will lose out.
The gemara in Sotah,however, which says that there is a bas kol, does not say that it applies to everyone. Tosafos clearly in dicates that it does not apply to everyone, and as you point out, logic dictates that it doesn’t apply to everyone. Does a baby born with severe mental disabilities, l”a, have a preordained zivug?
So certainly there is a concept of a preordained zivug, but it doesn’t have to apply to everyone, and even for those who have one, it may not actualize.
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