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Why do all the Kindergarten & Cheder pictures have Luchos on the top of Har Sinai at Matan Torah?
Hashem gave Moshe the Luchos AFTER he was up there for 40 days and he brought them down on י”ז בתמוז – not in Sivan?Because everyone has been influenced by the movie “The Ten Commandments” Ever notice in the pictures the Luchos have curved tops when that’s not how they looked?
The luchos represents the Torah which was given on shavuos
Or was it….
(I thought this was going to be your your question) when where mikadeish al pi riyah shavuos could have been on 5, 6 or 7 Sivan. Theres’ machlokes if Matan Torah was on 6 or 7 Sivan.So According to all 2/3 of the time Shavuos was not on the day of Matan Torah, possibly even occruin 2 days before .
That’s when we accepted them
By one midrash, both luchos had 10 commandments : these are simply two copies of a contract for both sides. So, whether the luchos were prepared in advance or written down later, shvues is the day the contract was agreed upon.
Ask Cicel B DeMille
You might be correct that the luchos were not brought down and then broken on 17 Tammuz BUT on Shavuous when we accepted the entire Torah and were given the 10 commandments-which is what is written on the Luchos-with the first few directly from Hashem.
The answer to the OP is mefurah in Targum Yonosan (Shemos 20;2 and onwards)
to quote the first place (he reapeats this by each Dibra)
דבירא קדמאה כד הוה נפיק מן פום קודשא יהי שמיה מברך הי כזיקין והי כברקין והי כשלהוביין למפד דינור מן ימניה ולמפד דאישא מן שמאליה פרח וטייס באויר שמיא וחזר ומתחמי על משיריתהון דישראל וחזר ומתחקק על לוחי קיימא דהוון יהיבין בכף ידוי דמשה ומתהפיך בהון מן סטר לסטר ובכן צווח ואמר עמי בני ישראל אנא הוא אלהכון די פרקית ואפיקית יתכון פריקין מן ארעא דמצראי מבית שעבוד עבדיאThe Hebrew translation (to quote כתב יונתן)
דיברה [דיבור] ראשונה כאשר היה יוצא מן פה הקדוש יהי שמו מבורך כמו זיקין [ניצוצות אש] וכמו ברקים וכמו שלהבות לפיד של אש מן ימינו, ולפיד של אש מן שמאלו פורח וטס באויר השמים וחזר ונראה על מחנותיהם של ישראל, וחזר ונחקק על לוחות הברית שהיו נתונים בכף ידו של משה ומתהפך בהם מן צד לצד ובכך צווח [קרא] ואמר עמי בני ישראל אני הוא אלהיכם אשר פדיתי והוצאתי אתכם פדויים מן ארץ של מצרים מבית שיעבוד עבדיםAnd for those who prefer English – something along the lines of ….
The first Dibra that came out of Hashems mouth like lightning and flashes of fire, a flame from His Right Hand, and a falme from His left Hand, it flew around in the air and returned to the Camp, and then went and engraved itself onto the Luchos which were held in Moshe’s palm, and went through from one side to the other and called out etc. ….He clearly says that Moshe was holding the Luchos during Matan Torah!
Thank you GotAGoodPoint for this (and for your previous post).
Instead of all the shtusim we have here, someone is discussing something sensible , and interesting! Keep it up!Kuvult, agreed 100%, the OP needs to see the movie
Maybe you should ask, Why is the Kriyas HaTorah of Shavuos morning the Aseres HaDibros?
The Kabolas HaTorah, Ma’amad Har Sinai was 50 days after Yetzios Mitzrayim. There we all HEARD the ASERES HA’DIBROS from HASHEM. The luchos with the aseres hadibros were received 40 days later (17 Tammuz), and then again Yom Kippur (10 Tishrei).Whether we like to admit it or not we are also affected by outside culture. Our neighbors religious pictures showed round tablets and it migrated to us. As mentioned above, Cecil B. Demille embedded it into the Jewish and Non-Jewish ethos with his epic masterpiece “The Ten Commandments” Maybe today its different because some are more insular. But almost everyone from the older generation has seen at least parts of it and that’s what they picture when they think of Yitziyas Mizrayim because it was amazingly well done and pretty much keeps to the Torah true version.
i never heard about Mr DeMille, but I checked him up today and he produced films between 1914 and 1958. Anyone who knows the slightest bit of history will be aware that the common practice to portray the Luchos as round, pre-dates Cicel, and his great grandparents as well. See what Gotagoodpoint quoted from Rav Shach and others…
Prewar Europe was full of luchos like these on Aron HaKodesh, in the front of seforim etc.
Maybe that too came from less-that-kosher influences ? but Cicel B Demille cannot claim the fame.Rashi Tehilim (29,7) on קול ה’ חוצב להבות אש mentions the above Targum Yanoson and in Shir Hashirim on ישקנו the Midrash says that every commandment created a malach which kissed them on the mouth when the Jews accepted it.
The most interesting part of the movie is the making the wall of the splitting water stand.
The real surprise for me in the movie was Doson. He’s played as a real jerk who every time Moshe says something he obnoxiously tries to convince the Bnei Yisrael not to follow him.
Rashi in Shir Hashirim (4,5) explains how the luchos are like twins being able to be read across. All are understandable except the last one needs an explanation. Why one who desires will give birth to one who will ashame him and will respect someone other than his father? Maybe, the Ibn Ezra explains the prohibition of desiring something belonging to someone else, one should refrain from desiring something not belonging to them as villager desiring a princess. It is out one’s reach. This applies if one respects their status that emanates from the father but if one respects someone else other than the father, they will desire something out of their reach even a princess but why not himself without having to give birth?
If I’m not mistaken the rounded depiction of the luchos dates back to the Renaissance and even earlier.
I had always heard the explanation that it was a metaphorical choice, the rounded tops being akin to a heart symbol (that the Torah should be in our ❤️) and to differentiate the luchos from other plaques or signs depicted in artwork.
Why do all the Kindergarten & Cheder pictures have Luchos on the top of Har Sinai at Matan Torah?
Hashem gave Moshe the Luchos AFTER he was up there for 40 days and he brought them down on י”ז בתמוז – not in Sivan?Because on Shavuous we celebrate and commemorate the giving of the Torah (and HKBH speaking the Aseres HaDibros) directly to us on that day. The luchos on the mountain are just representative of the Torah and the 10 Utterances. It’s not meant to be historically accurate, but to give the children something to visualize because they’re kindergarteners and a concrete thing (such as the luchos) are a lot easier for them to grasp than an abstract concept such as the Torah.
In other words, they’re little kids, it’s to help them understand. Lighten up.
The Wolf
Reb Zev, you’re also happy about the drawings of Moshe Rabbeinu wearing a shtreimal, right?
P.S. Good answer, by the way.
P.P.S. Hint – The answer to my question is yes.
The malach told Yosef נסעו מזה – מן האחוה. the brothers moved away from brotherliness, where do we see that? It says by the מזה ומזה הם כתובים, they were written such that we can read it across as twins.
שמא עברו על מזה מזה הם כתובים Mordechai was questioning that maybe the punishment was because they violated loving each other as brothers.Reb Zev, you’re also happy about the drawings of Moshe Rabbeinu wearing a shtreimal, right?
Personally, I don’t care, provided it’s meant for children and not meant to be historically accurate.
The Wolf
a (slightly) scientific question – which luchah was heavier? And (related) was Moshe lefty or righty?
Moshe Rabbenu wrote the Torah which should be written with the right hand.
have to answer the first question myself:
as we know, luchos were physically identical, but the first had way more text chiseled away – so, of course, 2nd was heavier.Presuming, Moshe was carrying them as in the movie to show to Jews, then the first lucha will be on right side for the people, or in Moshe’s left hand, so the heavier 2nd lucha was in his right hand, corresponding to two ideas above. So, here sevora, gemora, and physics all match.
When Moshe Rabbenu dropped the luchos there is a read and written word, read as וישלך מידיו, both hands but written מידו, one hand. Maybe, the Yerushalmi says that the letters made the luchas light to carry. So he was able to carry it with one hand but when they flew off, Moshe Rabbenu had to hold on with both hands and was unable to hold it and dropped it. This seems to disagree with the Babli being praised that he dropped it but according to the above he had no choice.
AAQ, if we can read the luchas across, there were two luchos attached מצומדים and not two single luchos.
And (related) was Moshe lefty or righty?
I’d say it’s far more likely that Moshe was a righty simply because the vast majority of humans are righties.
(Yes, I know that I’m an apikorus for relying on stupid things like statistics…)
The Wolf
Being a lefty is a mum. There’s no reason to suspect Moshe had such a mum.
RebE > if we can read the luchas across,
Maybe the lesson is that you can read them across – but only if you hold them together.
Wolf, an excellent Bayesian argument!
Can an itar yad write a sefer Torah with his left hand and would that be assur on Shabbos?
The answer to above is yes to both questions.
Got
Yes its an old question, but its a good one, I was just saying I thought thats what your question was going to be. I was surprised the question was on “Kindergarten & Cheder pictures”
they are alos often drawn with letters aleph Beis gimmel… etc As far as I’m aware there is no shita that says the luchos had 10 letters. for that matter Even when it does say the dibros it is always “Anochi Hashem “Lo yiheye” Never the full dibrosI presume that if Moshe had a choice of having script seen in the right way to himself and to others – he will choose to show it to the Jews the right way. After all, he already learnt them, his goal now was to show it to the rest of the yidden.
Man makes things square
Hashem creates things round
Just a suggestion!
Maybe the first ones were rounded
Second ones were square ?
If the Aron which was only there to
House them and not a independent
Kli was weightless then maybe the
Luchus were too?
In the Beis Hamikdosh when we never
Had Luchus we never had the Aron
HakodeshLoshen is correct! If you want to find man-made objects in satellite imagery – look for straight lines and right angles.
@ gotagoodpoint
Yes the Aron was hidden after the
destruction of our first Beis HamikdoshPoint is the Aron was only a house for
Luchos
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