20 Kislev in Chabad

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  • #1812183
    DoesntSoundGood
    Participant

    I understand that in Chabad they celebrate 19 Kislev as that is the day their founder was released from imprisonment but why do they also celebrate 20 Kislev? I’ve asked a few Chabad people but no one seems to know the answer.

    #1812381
    Milhouse
    Participant

    Because when the police took him home, they delivered him to the wrong address; they took him to the home of a misnaged, and he was stuck there for a few hours until his people realized what had happened and came to get him. He said he suffered more in those few hours than during his whole time in prison. So the geulah began on the 19th but was not complete until the 20th.

    #1812488
    Joseph
    Participant

    Milhouse: Please describe what a misnaged is/means.

    #1812496
    Milhouse
    Participant

    You know what a misnaged is. Someone who is opposed to chassidus. The chassidim did not give them that name, they gave it to themselves.

    In those days many of the misnagdim were motivated by a genuine concern that the new “kat” would turn out like the SZ and Frank cults, and abandon Torah & Mitzvos. That is why they did everything they could to try to destroy it. When they or their children saw that this was not happening, that in fact not only was chassidus not causing people to stop keeping mitzvos, it was causing them to become more diligent in their observance, they stopped being misnagdim. They didn’t necessarily become chassidim but they stopped opposing it. That is why R Chaim Brisker said that by his time (more than 100 years ago) there was no longer any such thing as a misnaged leshem shomayim.

    But there were always those misnagdim who were not lesheim shomayim, but were simply mecharcherei riv. Those people continued to be misnagdim to this day.

    #1812506
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    A Chassid and a Misnaged were sitting next to each other in front of an open Gemorah, shteiging together in chavrusa. Suddenly, the chassid looks over at the Misnaged and shouts excitedly “Do you see this???? Chazal bring down about R’ Yonason ben Uziel, that when he sat and learned,, any bird that flew over him burst into flames.'”
    The Misnaged, apparently not impressed, responded, “So Nuuu, whats your point?”
    The Chassid repeats again even more excitingly the inyan about R’ Yonasan…., “They said about Yonason ben Uziel, that when he sat and learned, any bird that flew over him burst into flames.”
    Sitting stone-faced, the Misnaged responds, “Soooo……”
    Exasperated at his chavrusa’s indifference, the Chassid explains, “Can you imagine the deveykus of this tzaddik?? He learned with such intensity and kavanah that a pillar of fire shot up out of the sefer before him and incinerated the birds flying over him! You are not impressed with this??”
    The Misnaged finally responds, “Why would I be impressed with this?? What I really want to know whose birds they were and how the damages owed by R’ Yonasan to the owner would be determined?

    #1812512
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    GH, There was a yekke who asked, was it baked well?

    #1812518
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    GH, the question of the litvak was if he was a mazik? How are you so sure he is responsible?

    #1812526
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Reminder that a fairly popular nigun “Un Az Der Rebbe Zing tZingen Alle Chasidim” was allegedly composed as a not so subtle parody by Misnagdim against the way they perceived Chasidim as blindly following their Rebbe and showing too much joy in their avodas hashem.

    P.S. I don’t think the OP was meant to trigger another round of chassidim v. misnagdim postings. My review of the CR archives shows the subject has been explored ad nauseum.

    .

    #1812739
    Milhouse
    Participant

    GH, the song was composed by maskilim, not misnagdim. Though the line between them was not so bright: many misnagdim were unfortunately infected by maskilim, especially through the efforts of Shimon Hakofer in Vilna, and others.

    #1812744
    DoesntSoundGood
    Participant

    Thanks for the explanation Milhouse but is that really correct. Sounds terrible and not at all in line with Chabad’s love of all fellow Jews, mitnagdim or chassidim.

    Can you give me a source where the Baal Hatanya himself gives that reason?

    #1812803
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    After Shabsei Tzvi both the GRA and the Noda Beyehudah were afraid that the chassidim will revitalize him.

    #1812931
    Milhouse
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, exactly. They were afraid, and when their talmidim saw that what they feared had not come about they ended their hisnagdus.

    #1812930
    Milhouse
    Participant

    Yes, DSG, it is really correct. That is what happened. Yes, Chabad loves all Jews, including the worst resha’im, and definitely including misnagdim. But misnagdim hated chassidim, and the fact is that the Alter Rebbe’s suffering during the few hours he was stuck in the misnaged’s home was worse than he had suffered the whole 53 days he was in prison.

    The source is Beis Rebbi. p 66. If the moderators will allow a link, you can find it at https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=3751&pgnum=83

    #1813109
    DoesntSoundGood
    Participant

    Thanks for that Milhouse but who wrote it? Clearly not the Baal Hatanya as he is referred to in the story in 3rd person.

    There are so many Chassidic stories that are made up, so I’m wondering where this came from.

    #1813234
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Milhouse,

    “Yes, DSG, it is really correct. That is what happened. Yes, Chabad loves all Jews, including the worst resha’im, and definitely including misnagdim. But misnagdim hated chassidim, and the fact is that the Alter Rebbe’s suffering during the few hours he was stuck in the misnaged’s home was worse than he had suffered the whole 53 days he was in prison.”

    This story turns “loving all Jews” on its head. To make a holiday celebrating the founder of Chabad’s “rescue” from a misnagid where a few hours in his house was worse than 53 days in a Russian prison does not reflect love. It’s canonizing a libel. An implication that misnagdim are far worse than Russian anti-Semites. Early Christianity demonized “Pharisees” through anecdotes similar to this despite the fact that it was the brutal Roman oppressors who killed their deity, and those libels had devastating consequences for the Jewish people over the past 2000 years.

    While anti-Chabad sentiment certainly exists, there are no anti-Chabad holidays on the Snag calendar. Hatred can flow in more than one direction.

    #1813274
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I think the Baal Hatanya says ואהבת לרעך כמוך you should love your fellow man like you, he is just like you, he also has a chelek elokai mimaal, a neshomo.

    #1813264
    knaidlach
    Participant

    The celebration is for the geula of chesidus. as its known that the imprisonment came about as a result of a kitrug lemaala for spreading Penimius Hatora into the open. and the Geula meant that a OK was given for chesidus to be taught to everyone. While in the misnaged’s house he was yelling on the Alter Rebbe for his derech etc. so the complete Geula from any hisnagdus to Chesidus was after leaving the misnaged’s house. BTW the Alter Rebbe did not leave the misnaged’s house before drinking the cup of tea he was served saying its Kovod Achsania.

    #1813285
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    so he was served tea and drank it and then spread the word that that was worse than the treatment from Russian anti-semites and you don’t see this as being hateful?

    ( I’m not saying the baal Hatanya is hateful, ch”v, because I have nothing to prove this story came from him.)

    #1813320
    knaidlach
    Participant

    sayg
    suffering in the misnaged’s house does not mean hating him chas veshalom. but it was a very bad few hours in his house. lets say a small child hurts you, would you hate him? of course not, but you are still hurt and in pain.

    #1813334
    CS
    Participant

    There’s nothing hateful about it. What would be worse- when Muslims beat their wives or when simple Jews beat their wives (in the past)? Something closer to home hurts more. Because you esteem and value the simple Jews it hurts more that they mistreated their wives. The Alter Rebbe suffered more when a fellow Jew who has a chelek Eloka Mimaal , opposed chassidus , then all the time he spent in jail. His host served him tea as a guest and then berated him for a few hours over the changes he made for chassidus. It pained him more to hear these accusations coming from the mouth of a precious well meaning fellow Jew than from the coarse gentiles who has interrogated him before. Nothing hateful there.

    #1813364
    5ish
    Participant

    Also, the misnaged made degrading and hurtful remarks regarding the Baal Shem Tov and Maggid, his rebbeim. So he suffered much more that a yid should be mivazeh the leaders of the generation then he suffered from being imprisoned.

    #1813373
    DoesntSoundGood
    Participant

    I tend to see it as very hateful. If the Baal Hatanya suffered from a misnaged it is hateful to make an entire day’s yom tov about it to the extent that tachnun is omitted.

    But as Syag Lchochma says who said that it came from him? I’m still waiting for a reply about that.

    #1813397
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Knaidlach – that’s just silly. I dont go telling people the small child was worse than russian anti semites.

    CS and milhouse – when a misnaged berates a lifestyle that is believed to be a threat on kovod hatorah, it isn’t worse than evil tortures. And if he served him tea, he obviously was speaking as a caring jew. To slander misnagdim and call it a holiday is degrading and hateful.

    #1813398
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Sorry, it was 5ish, not milhouse.

    #1813396
    K-cup
    Participant

    Why couldn’t the alter rebbe leave? He would rather listen to someone disrespect the besht? Is there a reason he did not defend chassidus? He certainly could have changed the misnaghids mind, (he of course would have changed the Gra’s mind given the oppurtunity). No, the story has it the Alter Rebbe decided to let himself and his path the hashem be smeared, for shalom and a hot beverag (in this version, there are many versions of this fairy tale)

    #1813414
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    That is something of a chutzpah, you know. Saying it was for shalom that he was quiet when he came out of the house and bad mouthed him and all misnagdim in an extreme way.
    Fairy tale sounds more like it. The fact so many people are quick to accept it as loving is so unfortunate

    #1813420
    knaidlach
    Participant

    syag
    the AR did not talk about the misnaged, he spoke about himself how he felt those few hours.
    It seems to me you are more comfortable with your opinion describing something negative about a giant of a man, a godol and manhig beyisroel. so you change a bit the story to fit your claim instead of looking at the story the way it is and seeing the positive messages mentioned above.

    #1813426
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Not at all. As i said before, i don’t believe it happened that way because a gadol yisroel would not have said it. I changed nothing, i just commented on the CR poster version of a story many decades old that you are calling nice when it in fact is not. In that way it is you who is speaking badly of a gadol.

    #1813455
    Milhouse
    Participant

    Wow. I gave you the source. Beis Rebbi is a very reliable and reputable source. If it says the Alter Rebbe said this, then he said it. And you have NO RIGHT to criticize him or second guess him.

    #1813537
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Milhouse, Until you know that he said it, you can criticize it.

    #1813563
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Milhouse, It is still second hand knowledge. Did he hear that the Alter Rebbe said it? If someone says the Rebbe is Meshiach, must he be Meshiach? This is not one of the thirteen emunas.

    #1813598
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Did he hear from the Alter Rebbe saying it?

    #1813669
    5ish
    Participant

    “And you have NO RIGHT to criticize him or second guess him.”

    There are indisputable mistakes in Beis Rebbe as has been pointed out by later sources. I believe they are mentioned in either (or possibly both) the biography by Avtzon, or Mindel.

    #1813709
    K-cup
    Participant

    Beis Rebbe is not a reliable source. It’s a collection of second and third hand stories, not unlike Touched by a Story

    #1813748
    DoesntSoundGood
    Participant

    Can someone please tell me who wrote Beis Rebbe?

    From what I hear, and what I have experienced firsthand in a more limited fashion, Chabad chassidim will believe anything bad said about anyone who they can label misnaged (or as I think Beis Rebbe calls it “menaged”) regardless of who the source is. I have heard stories – some pro-Chabad and some anti – quoted in the name of other Gedolim and after checking found some of them to be without a shred of truth.

    #1814190
    5ish
    Participant

    It was written by R` Chaim Meir Hilman, who I believe was a Kopuster Chossid.

    #1814650
    Defend Chabad
    Participant

    Avraham: “This story turns “loving all Jews” on its head. To make a holiday celebrating the founder of Chabad’s “rescue”….”
    Actually, I don’t find this minhag offensive at all, although I see where you’re mistaken. After all the shame and excommunications that he had to put up with and the lies and false charges that were levied against him by the Misnagdim, one can imagine the utter pain and torture the Alter Rebbe suffered at the hands of this Misnaged to whom he was sent after his supposed freedom. To question the veracity of the stories that are told of the Alter Rebbe as well as the comments he made regarding his stay in the misnaged’s house, is simply atrocious and despicable. These traditions, which are related at great length in the Sichos of our Rebbeim and hold a firm ground in Chabd tradiotion, and someone who claims that these stories and comments are unfounded or unreliable, is essentially taking issue with the whole Chabad mesorah.

    I hope that those that proposed these doubts and claims will apologize at the soonest opportunity.

    #1814652
    Defend Chabad
    Participant

    In the sicha of 19 Kislev 5738, the Rebbe clearly mentions this anecdote. Anyone who wishes could simply look it up in Toras Menachem.

    #1814660
    DoesntSoundGood
    Participant

    I’ve checked other threads in the coffee room, and I see that in the past there have been others more knowledgeable than me who have questioned Chabad’s “history” and who have even doubted some of the things written by one of their rebbes. So I don’t feel I’m in terrible company if I question the veracity of this story.

    How long ago were Chabad celebrating 20 Kislev? Are there any primary sources? By that I mean that if there is a statement in one of the seforim of, say, the Tzemach Tzedek himself, I would consider that primary and reliable. But a more recent source claiming that the Tzemach Tzedek said something about it is neither primary nor reliable.

    #1815400
    5ish
    Participant

    “I’ve checked other threads in the coffee room, and I see that in the past there have been others more knowledgeable than me who have questioned Chabad’s “history” and who have even doubted some of the things written by one of their rebbes. So I don’t feel I’m in terrible company if I question the veracity of this story.”

    I didn’t know this was a comedy thread.

    #1815435
    Toi
    Participant

    “es, Chabad loves all Jews, including the worst resha’im, and definitely including misnagdim”

    Garbage. Chabadskies despise ‘snags.

    #1815431
    5ish
    Participant

    In the sicha of Yud Tes Kislev 5693 (which is printed in Likutei Diburim) the Frierdikker Rebbe writes that the Alter Rebbe was released after Mincha but was mistakenly delivered to the home of a Misnaged where he was caused much more distress than his imprisonment. He adds that the Alter Rebbe was not concerned at all with his physical situation in prison which he spent in the presence of the Baal Shem Tov and Maggid.

    It is bordering on an insanity that some of you seem to be incapable of understanding that a person would suffer from having the derech in Avodas Hashem of his Rebbeim mocked, and you think that expressing that is somehow lacking in “Ahavas Yisroel.”

    The whole reason the Alter Rebbe was imprisoned in the first place was because of the instigation and persecution of the misnagdim, it has nothing to do with some vandetta or abuse by the Czarist Government.

    #1815444
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    5ish- and i hope you can clearly see the difference between your narrative and their narratives above, which i believe reflects the difference between the authenticity of your commitment to Torah and the unfortunate cultism that allows people to absorb, accepr and retell stories as if it was a superhero fandom.

    #1815526
    5ish
    Participant

    Syag- is it much different from what Milhouse wrote, “Because when the police took him home, they delivered him to the wrong address; they took him to the home of a misnaged, and he was stuck there for a few hours until his people realized what had happened and came to get him. He said he suffered more in those few hours than during his whole time in prison. So the geulah began on the 19th but was not complete until the 20th.”

    Maybe he intends something I don’t detect. In any case he said he was referencing Beis Rebbi, which although it is a generally reliable source, I have not read since there are much better later sources which reference the worthwhile things from Beis Rebbi while correcting the mistakes.

    Nu Nu.

    #1815616
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Yup, nu nu

    #1815697
    DoesntSoundGood
    Participant

    To continue what 5ish refers to as the “comedy thread” I will once again ask if there are any EARLIER sources – that is, earlier than Likutei Diburim whose reliability has been questioned in a number of other threads – that show that 20 Kislev was celebrated in Chabad in conjunction with 19 Kislev.

    #1815749
    xara
    Participant

    CHOF KISLEV IS CELEBRATED BECAUSE IT’S THE DATE WHEN THE TANYA WAS PRINTED FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 1797

    #1815891
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    xara, printed where?

    #1815893
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    xara, never mind, the Sefer Hatanya.

    #1815994
    xara
    Participant

    …”Tanya was completed on Tuesday, 20 Kislev, 5557 (1796), in Slavita” entry in Hayom Yom, 20 Kislev
    1796 not 1797 as previous post

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