2016 election and welfare

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  • #617211
    kfb
    Participant

    Just curious- do Jews on food stamps and welfare vote democratic bc they increase their benefits or do they vote republican bc they are more in line with their values and are more pro-Israel

    #1137473
    Joseph
    Participant

    On national and statewide and citywide executive position elections they tend to vote their social positions above economic considerations. On legislative elections economic considerations are a greater factor but social values still are more dominant.

    #1137474
    dovrosenbaum
    Participant

    I think it’s a travesty for religious Jews to vote Democrat. I also think welfare is a busha.

    #1137475
    charliehall
    Participant

    “I think it’s a travesty for religious Jews to vote Democrat.”

    I mostly vote for Democrats and make no apologies.

    ” I also think welfare is a busha.”

    Most welfare in America is either health care for those who can’t afford it, or subsidies to politically connected businesses. Eliminating the first would leave poor sick people to die in the streets, and eliminating the second just isn’t going to happen.

    #1137477
    kfb
    Participant

    “I mostly vote for Democrats and make no apologies.”

    Even after Obama destroyed the democratic party and pushed it way left?

    “Most welfare in America is either health care for those who can’t afford it, or subsidies to politically connected businesses. Eliminating the first would leave poor sick people to die in the streets, and eliminating the second just isn’t going to happen.”

    Most welfare is used for foodstamps and now more than even people can’t afford health care due to rising costs of obamacare. I’m talking about people who did have health insurance before. The subsidies to politically connected businesses- do you know how much money the government makes off of taxes from businesses? I wouldn’t call a small tax break(which is the business’s money anyway) a subsidy.

    #1137478
    homer
    Member

    Charlie What did people do before Medicaid became so big?

    People died in the streets?

    What country you from?

    Baloney liberal nonsense

    #1137479
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    You’re right. People died in low-rent apartments.

    #1137480
    kfb
    Participant

    homer- it’s called fear mongering. Liberals like to make people feel that they can’t make their own decisions or take care of themselves and that big government will take care of everything

    #1137481
    squeak
    Participant

    Call corporate handouts corruption, faulty economic theory, or anything along those lines and you can be taken for real. Only an idiot could call it welfare in the context of individual oriented social programs.

    #1137482
    TheGoq
    Participant

    I had a customer at my register the other day his bill was about $9 dollars and after he used his EBT card (we are not allowed to call it food stamps lest we shame the person heaven forfend) there was still a balance of $3 and change for a reduced price rotisserie chicken he said why isn’t that covered? I explained its a store prepared food so it is not covered by EBT he was so upset that he had to use his own money for this he argued that he had bought the same item with EBT before (untrue) and really kvetched about paying this amount from his own pocket.

    The amount of money people get for FOOD STAMPS is enormous and truthfully most who use it don’t need it meaning they are able bodied and not destitute aka lazy.

    #1137483
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So you think it’s proper to shame people?

    #1137484
    TheGoq
    Participant

    If one takes things meant for the poorest of the poor and they are able to provide for themselves and choose not to than yes they deserve some shame. That’s why they call it an entitlement because once you start using it after awhile you feel like you deserve it.

    #1137485
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You are making judgements about people whose circumstances you are only guessing at, and even if you’re right, you still shouldn’t shame them.

    #1137486
    Joseph
    Participant

    Food stamps is given to people who work full time also.

    #1137487
    TheGoq
    Participant

    No I do not shame them or have any desire to shame them they should be ashamed and use that to motivate themselves to be self sufficient entitlement is like a drug it’s a hard habit to break.

    #1137488
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Your words

    (we are not allowed to call it food stamps lest we shame the person heaven forfend)

    give off the impression that you wish you could shame them.

    #1137489
    Joseph
    Participant

    So food stamps bums should take a graveyard shift job after they finish their day job?

    #1137490
    TheGoq
    Participant

    In that case I retract that the point is they have no shame.

    #1137491
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    So you think it’s proper to shame people?

    It doesn’t make a difference what I think. Chazal does believe it to be appropriate.

    Kesubos 49b (from Mechon Mamre)

    ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????

    That being said, the standard of living expected (the real problem) is so high that if someone would live like Chazal did at that time, his children would be taken away.

    To the OP’s point, if Torah Jews block vote purposefully, they do so for someone who gives them favors, whatever they may be. Case in point is Hillary’s election to the Senate in 2000, where New Square voted for Hillary 1359 – 10 or something similar (while Kiryas Yoel voted en mass for the Republican). In exchange, her husband Bill pardoned four people who had stolen $40 million dollars from the government.

    Another example where it was tried was when the “Vaad” of Lakewood endorsed Corzine over Christie, because Corzine gave BMG Kesef. None the less, the Olam saw through it and voted for Christie because he was not pro-SSM and more in line with Torah values.

    So I would say the latter (Republican), unless the Shochad is large enough.

    #1137492
    Avi K
    Participant

    Chazal assume that a person would be ashamed to take any type of charity. Thus, the highest form of tzedaka is to provide a job (Shach, Yoreh Deah 249,7). This is best accomplished by the free market. In fact, Milton Friedman points out in “Capitalism and Freedom” that his enabled Jews to prosper in America despite discrimination.

    Unfortunately, there is an attitude among many that it is not necessary to find a permanent appropriate solution for someone as the government will take care of him. Moreover, some people like to keep others in dependency either as a means of controlling them or so that they can continue to feel good about themselves. If there were no poor people they would probably make a few poor so that hey could give them “tzedaka” every so often.

    #1137493
    charliehall
    Participant

    Anti-Zionist charedim in Brooklyn voted for Romney by overwhelming margins — over 80% in some areas. This despite the fact that Republican rule in Washington would cut the social programs those communities depend upon for their very existence.

    Zionist modern orthodox in Teaneck and Riverdale voted for Obama by smaller margins. This despite the fact that Democratic rule in Washington means higher taxes for these well off communities.

    The Republican Jewish Coalition’s 2012 exit poll had Obama over Romney by 4% among Orthodox Jews — almost exactly the margin among non-Jewish Americans.

    #1137494
    charliehall
    Participant

    For fiscal year 2014:

    Medicaid cost: $496 billion.

    SNAP (formerly food stamps) cost: $74 billion.

    #1137495
    charliehall
    Participant

    “Only an idiot could call it welfare in the context of individual oriented social programs.”

    The TARP bailout alone was over $400 billion. And I don’t see how you can call it anything other than welfare for insolvent banks. The government did get most of the money bank because it assumed an equity interest in those institutions — in other words, it nationalized the banks! This is called socialism. And the President who created TARP was a Republican. Obama, a Democrat, de-nationalized the banks.

    Life is not what the polemicists say that it is.

    #1137496
    Joseph
    Participant

    The RJC is clueless about Orthodox voting. Even the MO vote majority Republican in presidential elections. The Teaneck and Riverdale numbers you cite is a figleaf and incorrect as it includes a substantial number of non-Jewish and/or non-Orthodox voters in those figures. The Brooklyn Orthodox figures are more representative as those neighborhoods are often overwhelmingly Orthodox.

    #1137497
    Avi K
    Participant

    Charlie, how do they know? Unlike Chassidim, MO Jews live in mixed neighborhoods.I do not know about Teaneck (although I suspect that followers of Rabbi Pruzansky would not have voted for Obama) but I do know that Riverdale is a very liberal neighborhood. It is probable that even if the MO Jews there voted for Romney (who, BTW, was not seen as a conservative) they would have been overwhelmingly outvoted. As for exit polls, even in a scientific poll there is a four percent margin for error. Moreover, it would necessarily be people who self-identified as MO even if objectively they are Conservadox.

    #1137498
    squeak
    Participant

    TARP?! Now you’re grasping at straws. Here I was thinking you were trying to compare apples and oranges when you’re really trying to compare apples to unicorns.

    #1137500
    Josh31
    Participant

    TARP: With the banks the government got back all its money and even made a “profit”. With the car companies, the government lost money, but got back most of the money.

    WIC is probably also another “cost effective” program in which pushing the poor to eat more protein saves a greater amount in medical costs.

    #1137501
    Avi K
    Participant

    Josh, these programs disincentive stable families, with all of the attendant social costs, and have done nothing to significantly alleviate poverty. This has been documented y disparate bodies such as the Atlanta Black Star and the National Center for Public Policy Research. In general, tzedaka is best managed by civil society and communities as they can best identify the needs of individuals. National programs only benefit the bureaucrats who administer them.

    #1137502
    Joseph
    Participant

    WIC is a bad program, Avi?

    #1137503
    charliehall
    Participant

    “The RJC is clueless about Orthodox voting.”

    You are clueless about scientfically designed surveys. I suspect that the RJC was shocked at how poorly they had done. And if the Republicans nominate Trump or Cruz they will do worse this year.

    #1137504
    charliehall
    Participant

    ‘ With the banks the government got back all its money and even made a “profit”. With the car companies, the government lost money, but got back most of the money.’

    You are more of a socialist than Bernie Sanders!

    #1137505
    charliehall
    Participant

    ” In general, tzedaka is best managed by civil society and communities as they can best identify the needs of individuals. National programs only benefit the bureaucrats who administer them.”

    Actually almost all social programs are administered by state or local governments.

    Both in Judaism (see the descriptions of the Kuppah and Tamchuy in Mishnah/Yerushalmi Peah and Rambam), and in England and the American colonies (see the 1601 Elizabethan Poor Law and similar statutes in all the colonies), poor relief was indeed done on a local level. This worked well for a while but it was criticized by laissez-faire economists starting with Adam Smith for making labor markets less robust, as people did not want to move to get jobs in other communities less they become ineligible for help should the new opportunity not work out. It also bankrupted poor communities as the few well-off individuals remaining faced absolutely crushing tax burdens. As a result, support for the poor had to be funded at higher levels of government.

    #1137506
    charliehall
    Participant

    “apples to unicorns”

    apples — welfare for poor individuals

    unicorns — welfare for mismanaged businesses

    #1137507
    charliehall
    Participant

    “Riverdale is a very liberal neighborhood. It is probable that even if the MO Jews there voted for Romney”

    A lot of MO Jews here in Riverdale voted for Romney. But an informal survey of the roughly sixty guests in my sukkah that fall found that about 2/3 of them were planning to vote for Obama and the election results matched that.

    #1137508
    Joseph
    Participant

    Hahah, your liberal crowd of friends matched the results that included the non-Jewish and non-Orthodox voters in your neighborhood. Your couldn’t ask for a more non-representitive survey if you tried!

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