May 7, 2010 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #1050810
it took me a while but i get what you’re saying.
basically because there might be one person that for him $100 million is enough, which hashem obviously can’t handle, his account is only good for a few thousand. therefore the whole posuk in chumash and tanach was a printing error! hashem never promised wealth, because what’s wealth for you is not wealth for me. got it!
what else can we take out? shabbos is a little tough for me, can you take that out too?
basic translation, which EVERY rav agrees is what it means, agrees give masser and the reward is wealth! period!
you want to say wealth for you is 40k i respect that, but my question remains, what about the guy who wants more? and I’m not talking about 100 million (you like to go to the extreme to wash the basic question away) how about a guy who wants to pay all his bills and have money left over at the end of the month? is every guy giving masser getting that?
how about a better question give him a simple living, but where he doesn’t have to worry about getting fired, or losing his big customers??
bottom line if you’re happy with 40k a year that’s great i hope you get it, but don’t put words in hashems mouth, the posuk is as clear as day, and the question remains.May 7, 2010 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #1050811
so things in the torah aren’t meant to be taken literally?
so was shabbos a suggestion? how about gan eden maybe that was an example of what could be there after 120?
just wondering where do we start and stop? i for one grew up that the torah is 100% accurate, the gemarah on the other hand at times exaggerates a little.May 7, 2010 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #1050812
No, you still didn’t get it, as evidenced by your follow-up comment. The bottom line is you have a misconceived idea of the Torah concept of “wealth.”
Nowhere, no how, no place, does the Torah promise anyone all he “wants”, as you evidently believe (i.e. your above questions “why isn’t the person wanting a million dollars getting it??” and ” what about the guy who wants more?”)May 7, 2010 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #1050813
Sorry if i missed something, (I havent got the time to read through all these posts)
popa_bar_abba; First of all I make a Macho’oh on your knocking
of segulos and their power. Although I agree that people shouldn’t make it an Ikur, however, trying to discredit something that is way beyond your comprehension is just juvenile!!!
Secondly, your earlier comment about success after your post,
is somehow trying to hint that knocking segulos, is a segulah!
So make up your mind!May 7, 2010 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #1050814
bein_hasdorim: If I had composed these arguments myself, I would be concerned. Since I am merely repeating what my roshei yeshiva have said, and I think that I understand it, I am confident in discussing them.
Besides, how do you know I am not a juvenile.May 7, 2010 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #1050815
many people, including myself, keep on pointing out that riches could be hasameach bchelko and u keep on saying that it is literally riches, a promise like that is riches for sure etc. but 1st of all, chazal wasn’t making a suggestion that its nice if you are happy with your possessions than you are rich, rather, they equated the two- there are NO OTHER riches aside from being happy with what u have, no matter how u look at it.
2nd, the whole gemara of tiaser bishvil shetisaser is a peleh, because the same chazal who learnt that gemara, taught us that a HUMAN who has 100 wants 200, so how could you be rich ad bli dai which, btw, the gemara says means your lips will be tired from saying “enough” (has your mouth been hurting lately?) i think that it is muchach from there exactly farkert to what you were saying, that the gemara must mean money,it is obviously talking about being sameach bchelko, then when you are sameach bchelko you will really see the reality, that hashem has given you so much more than you deserve, and even though i dont know who you are, i believe that anybody in our dor (aside from the leading gedolim and the lamid vuv, neither of which i think would be chatting in the ywn cr) has done enough to thank hakadosh baruch hu for what they have, try to make a list of everything good you have, then, i dont’t know, maybe you can find someplace online that rates your income in a certain percentile, be thankful that you are no lower, and keep moving up in your emunah.
as a last proof, i don’t see anyone of our gedolei hador living in beautiful hundred million dollar mansions even though i think they gave at least the required masser and i believe (even though i don’t know them that well unfortunately) that they are all happy with what they have, maybe they feel bad for everyone else in klal yisroel but they are perfectly content with their own wealth
i dont know if this will be my last time posting b4 shabbos but if it is:
a gut shabbos, and chesedname, don’t worry 2 much about becoming richer and richer by the day, because your whole life is in the hands of the Melech Malchei Hamlichim and every step u take is guided by Him so i dont think he will let down a faithful son (which i’m sure u r) just keep your bitachon in him that everything he does is for your good and try to enjoy life a little once you have such a caring and loving fatherMay 7, 2010 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #1050816
I don’t believe a person gets all he wants, you’re taking what i said out of context.
you said you’re happy with 40k and that’s wealth for you i said ok, what about the guy who a million dollars is wealth? most ppl have higher standards than 40k a year!
better yet maybe wealth is a dollar? so everyone has a dollar, this proves hashem rewarded them for masser.
lets make this simpler so a 3rd grader can get it, if the torah promises wealth, then wealth is what is to be expected, not anything less. especially if hashem says you can test me.
what is wealth? i tried to stay away from this argument because wealth can mean different things to different ppl,but I’ll make this even simpler so you’ll get it.
MOST PPL DON’T HAVE WHAT THE AVERAGE PERSON CONSIDERS WEALTH
so if someone says just give me 25k a year after expenses to have a small savings account, most ppl don’t have that! so again the question remains what happened to hashems promise?
ps this question is not mine, 100’s have asked before me, including many sefarim, and there really is no good answer, that’s why i wanted to see what the ppl here had to say. all the rabbonim i spoke to, not one gave me the ludacris answers you’re giving! so stop with the 40k is wealth, stupidityMay 7, 2010 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #1050817
You’re just repeating yourself, and you still don’t get what the Torah concept of “wealth” is.
Suffice to say, what “average” yodle on the street considers wealth, is not the true concept of wealth.May 7, 2010 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #1050818
lets say someone makes a million dollars and doesn’t say enough and wants ten million dollars, why isn’t the person making ten million dollars??
lets say someone makes ten million dollars and doesn’t say enough and wants a hundred million dollars, why isn’t the person making a hundred million dollars??
OK, let us make a distinction between the word “want” and “need”. People might know what they want (millions of dollars) but they don’t know what they need. Only Hashem knows what a person truly needs. But in reality, everyone should only want what they need, anything extra would probably just make them more unhappy (marba nichasim marba daaga) and would also possibly take away zchusim in Olam Habba. I’m not saying that anything more than bread and water is extra, some people need more, some need less, everyone is created differently and Hashem knows everyone’s feelings, emotions, needs. As wolfishmusings said above, high income does not equal wealth, it is different for everyone. Some peopel need to live in a fancy house and drive a fancy car, it is part of their teva and Hashem knows this. Others might be just as happy to have that extra money in the bank to pay their monthly bills.
The pasuk says “poseach es yadecha umasbia l’chol chai ratzon” Hashem gives everyone his “ratzon”. Assuming this is referring to the person’s ratzon and not Hashem’s, this means that Hashem gives a person what the person wants, but we know that not everyone has what they want. But, that is only with our limited understanding, Hashem knows what we really “want” in the long run even though we don’t know. If you think about it carefully (which I doubt chesedname has the ability to do on this subject) “want” and “need” are really the same thing and we, with our limited understanding of the big picture, don’t fully know what it is that we need/want. Hashem does know, and he gives that to us.May 7, 2010 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #1050819
all the rabbonim agree that wealth is a lot of money! that was the promise and the reward, so it’s not really up for debate.
whether wealth is a million or 4 million, doesn’t make a difference, ppl don’t have either one, so the main question still remains.
and not one rav says that wealth means enough to pay your bills, so if that’s your understanding, it’s a daas yachidMay 7, 2010 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #1050820
“all the rabbonim agree that wealth is a lot of money!”
Please name me a few Rabbonim that believe it is only that. Until then there is every reason to assume you are completely WRONG.
“whether wealth is a million or 4 million, doesn’t make a difference, ppl don’t have either one, so the main question still remains.”
But people do have 40, 50, 60 etc. thousand. That is wealth too. Because YOU don’t think so, doesn’t make it not so.
“and not one rav says that wealth means enough to pay your bills, so if that’s your understanding, it’s a daas yachid”
Many Rabbonim say exactly that! Your understanding is a daas tipish.May 7, 2010 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #1050821
your kind words weren’t written exactly as a bracha, but i’m taking it as such, so amen and thanksMay 7, 2010 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #1050822
“our needs are more important than our wants”, that would fit well if the promise was “give masser, and you’ll have everything you need” that’s not what the promise is. if it was i would have no questions.
poseach es yadecha umasbia l’chol chai ratzon actually rabbi reisman has the same question i’m asking on masser in regards to this posuk, he says the posuk means hashem gives us what we want, and that’s obvisaly not true. but that’s not my question for now.May 7, 2010 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #1050823
if 40k is wealth, would you say amen when you get a bracha you should make every year 40k no more and no less???
as far as which rabbonim say the bracha is wealth ie money
minchas chinuch “the bracha is money”
aruch hashulchan ‘i don’t know why it doesn’t work for everyone”
rav chaim kanievsky “it’s talking about wealth, maybe it doesn’t work because of____” (he gave a few reasons)May 9, 2010 6:03 am at 6:03 am #1050824
chesedname, why do you ignore what I wrote? As far as the Ad Sheyiblu Sifsoseichem part, the Gemara was Darshening the Pasuk. Not necessarily does that go back onto anyone who gives Maaser. Chazal learned from this Pasuk that giving Maaser will make you rich, but it doesn’t mean that everything we find there applies to Maaser.May 9, 2010 7:14 am at 7:14 am #1050825
You mention Moshe, he did receive an answer, but his question and answer has nothing to do with masser.
Rabbi Akiva, same thing, no shachas.
Gemarah in shabbos, yes they asked what zechus did they have, the answer was masser, which shows giving masser makes you rich. And giving masser is the zechus you need to get the wealth/brachaMay 9, 2010 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #1050826
Let’s look at this from a different angle, you are assuming that almost everyone gives maaser. This might be true to some extent, but does everyone give maaser right away? Is everyone midakdek to make sure they are giving at least a tenth? Does everyone give it to the cause that it should be given to (aniyay ircha kodmin, etc)? Does everyone give it with a smile? Perhaps (I’m just guessing here) the bracha only applies to those who give maaser b’leiv shalem following the halacha exactly without cutting any corners, etc.
And getting back to the topic of this thread – segulos. Giving maaser seems to be a segula for “wealth”. Does this segula work? Does it require proper bitachon and davening as well in order to work? Maybe it only works if you really believe in it b’leiv shalem. Many people claim that they are big ba’alei bitachon when it comes to these types of things just as an excuse to have a tayna against Hashem. If you have true bitachon than this question probably won’t bother you.May 9, 2010 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #1050827
chesedname, I did not mean a cursory glance. I mentioned Moshe and Rabbi Akiva to bring out that although an outsider may have questions, to the person himself things often make sense.
How can you tell me that the Pasuk is talking about Maaser Kesafim when the whole thing is a Minhag, and definately not a De’uraisa.
Aser Beshvil Tetisasher doesn’t necessarily mean that by giving you will get rich. It means give in order to get rich. Hashem says to test and see that the more you give the more you get back, and you don’t become poor by giving Tzedaka. This is something that you can try yourself.
Ad Sheyiblu is Pshat in the Pasuk, not in the Drasha that we learned.
The reason why you hear it applied to today although it really meant the authentic Maaser, is because the rule applies to all Tzeddaka.
In other words, you made three leaps:
1) To apply that Gemara to Maaser Kesafim even though it might not have existed at the time.
2) To apply Ad Sheyiblu to any Maaser, while it really should be kept to that specific Pasuk which was meant for that time.
3) To say that Aser Beshvil Shetisasher means that you’ll definately get rich, while it means that it’s a cause to get rich.May 9, 2010 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #1050828
i have no doubt that some are not doing the mitzvah properly, and therefore the bracha doesn’t apply to them.
if it was simply a segula from some rebba, even from moshe rabbanu himself, we can say maybe you have to daven for money while you do it, or it won’t work for all etc,..
but when the all mighty himself (yes, g-d is not a female lol)PROMISES, and even flaunts it by saying TEST me, then it should work 100% of the time not even 99%.
it becomes like a real partnership one gives 10% and the other comes through with wealth, there shouldn’t be excuses by so many of us.
also if 80% of klal yisroel were wealthy, i would agree there must be a good reason for the other 20% but in reality less than 20% of us don’t think and worry about bills, i don’t think we can say it’s a guaranteed thing, and it didn’t work for 99% because of some other factor, that’s not what test me is all about.May 27, 2010 11:59 pm at 11:59 pm #1050829
So, we may hear of how answering amen and yehei shmei rabba are such powerful segulos that they can be mechaper for apikorsos or change one’s mazel but all of these powers are nothing compared to one word of Torah!
Speaking of Amen’s and segulos, I once heard that there is a mekor in last week’s parsha for the Amen parties that women have nowadays. It says in the pasuk (Bamidbar 5:22) ????? ????, ??? ???October 14, 2010 2:12 pm at 2:12 pm #1050830
The way people approach segulos reminds me of the Shlah’s comment on how most people daven on Rosh Hashana: like dogs barking for food…. Vihameiven Yaven.October 14, 2010 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #1050831
I could be wrong; but I may have read somewhere in the past,
that if someone gives Maaser,
then instead of making someone rich in money,
Hashem could make him rich in something else, like good health.January 2, 2015 6:54 am at 6:54 am #1050832
I bought a lottery ticket. And I gave maaser. So according to chesedname I am guaranteed to win the lottery. Let’s hope he’s right…January 2, 2015 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #1050833
From the giving613 website (google this), in the articles tab: “Maaser: The Torah’s Prescription for Wealth” check it out, it’s easy to read (consult a Rav of course):
“Although anyone who gives Tzedakah has a guarantee from our Torah that he will not be impoverished by doing so, one who properly separates 10% of his income to charity has a guarantee that he will be repaid for every penny that he gives to charity, and that he will become wealthy over time.”
I’m not sure how long “over time” is. It has been 4 years, chesedname, are you wealthy yet?January 2, 2015 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #1050834
He has to consult his Rav.August 1, 2017 7:32 am at 7:32 am #1330201
Would love track down this source….been saying it since Shavuot…..will stop for Tisha bav…..no stories or notable experiences to speak of at all……this is already the 2nd go around at this……tried it last fall as well…….perhaps I should have been a18 year old bais yakov girl….who is already shidduch dating evey night and day…..hishtadlus is always the monkey wrentch…..I simply don’t get itAugust 1, 2017 10:01 am at 10:01 am #1330230
Chessedname u give double maaser and make even more !August 2, 2017 7:50 am at 7:50 am #1330549
Mod, it depends. The lives of many lottery winners were destroyed because they could not handle their new wealth. If that would be the case with you you will win by not winning. As for becoming wealthy, one who is happy with his portion is wealthy.
In any case, there is a sure-fire way to get rich – sell segulot.August 2, 2017 7:50 am at 7:50 am #1330550
I meant make a great deal of money.August 2, 2017 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #1330831
We are the Am Segula.December 28, 2017 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #1438923
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