40th Siyum Harambam This Sunday!!!

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  • #1981104
    meirs
    Participant

    Are people here planning on going to the siyum harambam on Sunday?

    #1981219
    sifsei chachamim
    Participant

    Yes, of course.

    #1981250

    meirs, why would you be celebrating Rambam?

    Rambam learned chochmat goyim, even philosophy, wrote in Arabic, did not speak Yiddish, and even disapproved of those who take money to support their learning.

    #1981611
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Can anyone explain to me the rationale of learning “rambam yomi”?
    As a halacha sefer, we often do not pasken like the rambam; sometimes he is, in fact, a da’as yochid. You won’t know thar nor will you have an inkling of the depth of his Torah, which can only be seen if you are “in the sugya” and see how he learns pshat; that’s what we do in yeshivos. You also won’t actually have pshat in the rambam himself because of how often he contradicts himself, but since you’re reading it like a book you won’t have the achronim who resolve these contradictory statements.

    As a perush on sugyos… it’s not in order of shas.
    Does this not give a false sense of accomplishment that you somehow have a tefisa on kol hatorah kulah because you’ve learned one rishon’s shitah of dinim without at the very least knowing remotely how to pasken?

    I can hear abln argument for going through kodshim and taharos with just the rambam, but even then, why not learn aruch hashulchan ha’asid, written by someone who a large part of klal yisroel actually paskens like?

    This is a modified version of the argument I saw advanced on the old frumteens forum back when I was a kid.

    #1981636
    koltov7
    Participant

    Everyone is welcome to celebrate!!!

    The daily learning of Mishneh Torah is instituted by the Lubavitcher Rebbe for many reasons. Two points are: Yidden should seek to in general learn lishmah. This limud of RMBM does provide some light on the entire 613, making the work unique in this regard.

    The lishmah here occurs automatically since the learning is specifically not for the sake of finding psak. It is simply learning for the sake of the learning 馃檪

    #1981638

    /As a halacha sefer, we often do not pasken like the rambam

    Rambam is in a league of his own in pursuit of truth using rational methodology. If you learn from him how to reason, you will not waste your time

    #1981652
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Also, you will only learn his reasoning if you are in the sugya under discussion. If you learn his chidush, for example, that you need only have 40 hairs on payos harosh without the relevant gemaros, all you have is a sound byte of random information, but alas, you have “learned” his “rational methodology”, or according to the first poster, you have somehow learned torah lishma.

    Torah lishma means you want to learn torah, and know it “al buryo” leshem shomayim, because hashem gave us a mitzvah to both learn and know torah. As a chabad chossid you should be familiar with the baal hatanyas shitah of the mitzvah of yedias hatorah, which he says is bigger than aisek hatorah. But that’s only if you know the dinim, as he explains openly. Knowing random words from the rambam without gemara-context or psak is arguably not aisek, nor yedias hatorah in such circumstances.

    #1981651
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Torah lishma is your intention, not your methodology. Shmaitsa aliba dehilchasa is the mesorah; you’re conflating methodology with intention.

    Alwaysaskquestions – if you want to have a serious conversation, leave out haskalah-driven analysis of rishonim. There’s no practical difference between the Rosh, baalei tosfos, the Rif and the Rambam. Shulchan aruch gave them practically equal consideration, as should we.

    Imagine the magen avrohom sitting and thinking… let’s pasken like the rambam because his views sometimes have a analogs with in vogue rationalism! Brilliant idea!

    #1981661
    meirs
    Participant

    The Rebbe addresses all these complaints, more than once, see farbrengen of 12 Tammuz 5744 (1984).
    First of all, not sure how often you learn rambam, but he doesn鈥檛 contradict himself often, and even in those few situations where it seems like there is a contradiction, a quick glance in the meforshim will clearly show how it鈥檚 not. To state that he often contradicts himself seems like a chisaron on him. How can something like that even be thought about a person that knew kol hatorah kula, and even wrote it down in a simple language for everyone to understand, ktanim and gedolim, like he states in the introduction to the mishna Torah.

    #1981789
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Meirs; tosfos asks kushyos in the form of contradictions on literally every daf of gemara; it’s not a chisaron, it’s the foundation of the search for true understanding of all aspects of torah shebaal peh, including the words of the holy rishonim. A “quick” look at the meforshim is no different than spending 10 minutes on an amud and “quickly” learning up a complicated tosfos. It just doesn’t work.

    Is the ohr somayach or rav chaim al horambam a “quick” read?

    And yes, the cases in which the rambam contradicts either himself or shas are copious; that’s because he’s not a book to be read, but rather part of the continuum of torah itself.

    There’s a famous vort from rav shach about why there are hava aminas in gemara. 拽讜讚砖讗 讘专讬讱 讛讜讗 讗讬住转讻诇 讘讗讜专讬讬转讗 讜讘专讗 注诇诪讗 “hashem looked into the Torah and created the world”, since in the world, hashem was 讘讜专讗 注讜诇诪讜转 讜诪讞专讬讘谉, he created and destroyed worlds before our own was made, that corresponds to hava amina and maskana. I was mosif on this vort that that’s why there are contradictions; the same way in this world, we see din and chessed, good things and “bad”, but we know that all of it is from hashem and that it’s no contradiction, so too in torah, there are contradictions everywhere, but it’s all really harmonious if we put in the effort to understand it

    #1982048
    MosheKapoyer
    Participant

    AviraDeArah – You attempt to portray yourself as a intelligent man by discouraging Limud HaTorah?
    What type of negative self destructive person are you?
    Are you saying that the Tena of Thousands that learn Daf Yomi shouldn’t learn it because they are not learning it B’iyun?
    Your bitterness will not get you far

    #1982056

    >> Knowing random words from the rambam without gemara-context or psak is arguably not aisek, nor yedias hatorah

    The way I (imperfectly) understand Rambam, he directly contradicts you and suggests reading him without sources. Luckily I can resolve this machlokes between CR and Rambam – maybe Rambam directed this just to balabosim like me.

    As to calling “rationality” as “haskala”, I asked a deep Chabad scholar about some Rambam shita and Muslim philosophy and responded “Rambam was not afraid of admitting truth from any source”.

    MosheKapoyer, admittedly, a lot of Talmidei Chachamim felt same way when Daf yomi was starting, so AviraDeArah is in a good company. If you ask me .. It is interesting, but takes time away from Torah learning :). At least with mussar, famous R Salanter’s answer was to spend available hour on Mussar and not Gemorah, as it will lead you to finding more time to learn Gemorah. I do not yet feel same effect from the Daf, maybe I need to finish it first …

    #1982071
    Milhouse
    Participant

    The Rambam himself explicitly said that all a person needs to learn, in order to know the whole Torah, is the Tanach and the Mishneh Torah. According to the Rambam there is no need to learn gemara! Of course we don’t pasken like him on that question, and we do learn gemara and also other rishonim, but you can’t dismiss it out of hand as “obviously” wrong, as you do.

    #1982093
    koltov7
    Participant

    To highlight the end of that famous vort, a pasuk from yeshaya hanavi: “ki lo machshivosai machshviseichem”

    To be clear again:

    Learn for the sake of learning because the abishter commanded us to learn torah. Thats all its very simple. If a person (can and) wants to learn all the seforim in the world to come up with an “understanding” in their own head, please and do so lishmah!!!!!

    Everyone is always invited to celebrate the siyum harambam on gimmel tammuz. May we, shas klal yisroel, celebrate this one and all siyumim hatorah from now on together in our holy land 馃檪

    #1982094
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    I never mentioned a problem with daf yomi. My gripe here is with learning “rambam yomi”. I said that if one learns daf yomi style, they are not ready to learn rambam as a perush on that gemara, the same way they aren’t ready to learn any rishonim as a perush. I also don’t see s need for baseless ad hominem attacks, so rather than say you’re reactionary and projecting your own lack of self worth, I’ll just say that I wish you all all the hatzlocha in the world in learning

    That being said, let us not be tricked by the yatzer hora of “abi az mer lernt”, that as long as you learn something it’s perfectly fine. Try going to a university and saying “well, I’m studying one page of economics and one of sociology a day without much effort, so…give me a diploma!

    The ramchal says that 讛诪讗讜专 砖讘讛 诪讞讝讬专讜 诇诪讜讟讘 only applies when one learns Torah with at least the same vigor that he would exert in secular studies. Torah is not a joke and cannot be hefker, with everyone doing as they please while simply saying “abi az mer lernt”

    Every word of Torah is dvar hashem, and the very act of trying to learn means everything to Hashem; some people find it hard to learn be’iyun or are unable to because of their workload – no one’s saying that they shouldn’t learn, chas veshalom!

    Happens to be that halacha pesukah is that if one only has a short amount of time, learning practical halacha takes precedence over gemara, including daf yomi but there are people who need that motivation and would not learn otherwise. There’s a time and a place for “abi az mer lernt”, but it does not change the emes or the ratzon hashem as expressed in 讚讘专 讛 讝讜 讛诇讻讛.

    I don’t see what is bitter or negative about such statements.

    #1982065

    AviraDeArah> Torah lishma is your intention, not your methodology.

    this is an interesting question.. We discussed here recently a Maharal in Netivos Olam that explains why a confused Bavli won popularity context against a more knowledgeable Yerushalmi .. [just imagine all Tannaim who made fun of those in the West seeing yeshivot learning Bavli, they’ll be confused more than Moshe in R’ Akiva’s class]. So, Maharal sees that Bavli had to reconstruct missing information and developed a method to do that (akin to modern pattern analysis – my words, not Maharal’s). So, now we can apply the same method to new situations. Thus, Bavli turned out more useful for future generations than Yerushalmi.

    So, if I understand you correctly that we need to only learn halakhic conclusions without thinking how the authors came up to that, Maharal above seem to support the idea that learning how to think is also Torah. And there is enough in the Torah that different people can enjoy different parts of it. We don’t need to argue which part is more important.

    Even in pure halakhic analysis, you may want to know the approach. for example, if you have multiple opinion, but many of them come from the same school or are independent opinions; whether they are using rational argument or relying on mesorah, and how strong that mesorah is; and whether underlying assumptions of the rational argument hold in current times.

    #1982154
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    So, if I understand you correctly that we need to only learn halakhic conclusions without thinking how the authors came up to that, Maharal above seem to support the idea that learning how to think is also Torah”

    I never said to learn conclusions; I said that learning psak that we don’t follow without the background of the sugya is not a good idea, and lefi aniyus daati, might not be a kiyum of limud hatorah. We spend years figuring out how the chachamim came to their conclusions; proper sevara, logic, that’s the foundation of yeshiva learning – I don’t see how anything I said contradicts that. I also don’t see anything in your post about the distinction between methodology and intention in the definition of torah lishma.

    The oft-quoted rambam about not needing anything besides rambam is being abused in a similar fashion as to how the reform use the story in the gemara about how hillel told the ger “that which you don’t like, don’t do to your fellow”. The reform ignore all of shas and all other statements from hilel hazaken, and say that hilel is advocating humanism and that only bein odom lechavero matters. So too with this rambam, because if you look at the rambam in hilchos Talmud torah – meaning his halachik rulings regarding how one must learn, he makes zero mention of learning mishnah torah or any other sefer written by himself.

    What the rambam meant is up for discussion; it could be he was referring to other meforshim such as the rif or ri migash, since they weren’t as comprehensive.

    “As to calling 鈥渞ationality鈥 as 鈥渉askala鈥, I asked a deep Chabad scholar about some Rambam shita and Muslim philosophy and responded 鈥淩ambam was not afraid of admitting truth from any source鈥.”

    Interesting how one of the greatest chabad gedolim in history, and one of the biggest gaonim period, wrote that every word in the moreh nevuchim is based on chazal. That was the Rogatchover gaon.

    Chabad is, unfortunately, beset with enough issues of late that such a contention is not high on the list of 注拽讬专转 讛讚转 that we see becoming commonplace. Here is not the forum for such a conversation at lengthy, but actually, the atzmus elokus ideology is less monotheistic than Islam.

    #1982190
    Benephraim
    Participant

    Please remember that for Yemeni Jews, all there is , is the Rambam. There is a famous vort why the trees will rejoice in the time of Moshiach. Because we can ask the Rambam himself what he meant and won’t need trees for paper to print theories and conjectures. BTW, why don’t we say chazak but instead substitute hadran?

    #1982189
    koltov7
    Participant

    The siyumim are being held this sunday gimmel tammuz!!!

    May we be zoche to celebrate all together in the holy land!!!

    Everyone should have a beautiful shabbos kodesh!!!

    馃檪

    #1982198

    Avira,
    ok, seems we do not disagree much. I would like to mention one point though – your usage of Reform, etc as a warning. We need to maneuver carefully when encountering threats – Hellenism, Islam, Haskala, Communism … On one hand, the approach of keeping away from the threat worked many times at the time of encounter On the other hand, long-term we need not to get carried away and modify Yehadut in opposition to the threats long-gone. We are not stopping learning Humash because of Tzdukim … but we did stop reading ten commandments …
    If Reform abused tikun olam, does not mean that we should ignore bein adam l’havero and push and shove each other on the way to a “mitzvah”. Secular studies were strongly associated with non-religious lifestyle at some point, and this now prevents people from getting honorable professions. Maybe Rambam’s/Aristotle’s halakhot deot applies here: community, as a person, needs to generally keep a middle path, but should deviate to compensate for a trend. As with a skidding car or a stable inflation rate, applying such controls inappropriately may end up in a ditch on a left or on a right side (or inflation/deflation), thus a need to see big picture where we are and which way we are moving. Maybe second derivative also.

    As to learning psak v. meta-learning, my Lakewood Teacher explained 1/3 humash/mishna/gemora as applying to total learning, so at some point one needs to learn more of the gemora (reasoning behind laws, rather than just laws) as it is a much bigger field. Hate to bring covid here, but it aptly demonstrates that modern life brings new issues very fast comparing with cneturies ago where drastic changes were relative rare. So, ability of the community to adapt is even more important.

    #1982290
    meirs
    Participant

    AviradeArah
    That last comment you made is a pretty strong one. Just to make this clear your accusing a massive group of Jews that they鈥檙e kofrim khalacha

    #1982312
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Meirs; I don’t think anyone outside the inner circle can tell how dar reaching the ideology of a rebbe being divine has affected chabad.

    I can point to several frightening examples of prominent figures in chabad which give a picture, like Shlomo Cunin, who on video said proudly that after mumbai “the whole world will know that it’s the rebbe who runs the world!” in the presence of many chabad rabbis – not one person protested. He said that the rebbe has some sort of dominion over the world. That might be a type of avodah zara which is a belief that Hashem gave over shlita to a certain malach or kochav independently, or it might be worse; it might be embracing atzmus elokus ideology in all its man-god depravity. That video can be found by googling “shlomo cunin chabad rebbe runs world” as the first result on Google.

    Anecdotal encounters with chabad individuals include them trying to justify praying to their rebbe, who apparently can hear them from shomayim, granting him a certain omnipotence that is supposed to be Hashem’s. They have felt safe walking in the dead of night because they are carrying a picture of the rebbe. They believe he was a bonafide navi – I would be remiss not to mention the gravity of claiming to be a navi when one is not in fact… I would not want my rebbe accused of such grave sins.

    Quick reading of chabad children’s literature is also frightening. I’ve seen the idea of doing a mitzvah because the rebbe said to do it. This was not in an overtly messianic publication. Go on a chabad forum and you will find many mentions of a “kiddush chabad” instead of a kiddush hashem.

    It is for these reasons and more that many…many choshuve rabbonim will not eat chabad meat or drink their wine, including my rebbe, who was one of the leading poskim in America. I’m not sure if I should post his name.

    Chabad has many poskim and rabbonim. I hope these ideologies have not reached everywhere, but nothing is certain. What is certain is the hadracha of the gedolei yisroel who distanced themselves.

    It is my hope and prayer that the great chabad legacy be revived and that all false philosophies be forgotten.

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