4th of July vs yom haatzmaut

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  • #603984
    kfb
    Participant

    I have a relative who lives in Israel and they asked me what I did for yom haatzmaut, I said nothing. Then I asked her what are you going to do for July 4th? She got really defensive. She made it seem like all Jews should celebrate yom haatzmaut. I told her that makes no sense since I’m American, why would I celebrate another country’s independence day? Any thoughts??

    #943936
    Csar
    Member

    Absolutely, correct. I would add even Jews in EY shouldn’t in any way celebrate Yom Haatzshmut.

    #943937
    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    Well israel IS the Jewish country and u r I’m expecting Jewish. Right? So I totally c her reasoning. But when we lived in America we only went to see fireworks cuz where I lived, they were completely free! So ya that’s really the only reason. Or we would go out to a restraint if we didn’t want to one year. No, not to celebrate, cuz e/o was at the fireworks and the place was empty!

    #943938
    MorahRach
    Member

    When I was in school we celebrated it. Most modern day schools do. As an adult I don’t.

    #943939
    takahmamash
    Participant

    Absolutely, correct. I would add even Jews in EY shouldn’t in any way celebrate Yom Haatzshmut.

    Jews in Israel celebrate Yom Ha’atzmaut because they are happy that they live in E”Y and are on a higher madreiga than those in chu”l. This is, of course, because even 1 square centimeter of the shkotziest corner in Tel Aviv has more inherent kedusha than anyplace else in the world outside E”Y.

    #943940
    sushee
    Member

    Kedushas Eretz Yisroel can be found in Southern Lebanon. More so than in Tel Aviv.

    #943941
    Avi K
    Participant

    All Jews should celebrate Yom HaAtzmaut. Jewws in EY especially because we have all the benefits, opportunities and challenges (what’s life without challenges?) of having an independent state. Jews in the Lands of Tuma (as per Chazal) because according to many, including Rav Soloveichik and Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky, without Israel there would have been almost total assimilation due to the national depression in the wake of the Holocaust.

    As for the US ID, America is a fine country and in many ways the Israel of the Goyim (this is far beyond the scope of this or any post) but it is not ours.

    #943942
    Toi
    Participant

    Israel isnt ours. it belongs to the zionists.

    #943943
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    sushee: Move there, please.

    #943944
    sushee
    Member

    The zionists yms have made it uninhabitable, by virtue of their historical actions.

    #943945
    kfb
    Participant

    Avi K- can you explain why I should celebrate yom haatzmaut when I was raised and born in America? What benefits and opportunities do I get frOm Israel? Is it because I can visit it anytime I want? I can also visit France any time I want, should I start celebrating France’s holidays? I don’t get it. Please explain further.

    #943946
    147
    Participant

    kfb: You should celebrate Yom ha’Atzma’ut simply because of the Menuchas haNefesh that you know that should there ever be a pogrom in the USA {& if Chas v’Sholom Obama wins a 2nd term, this certainly cannot be ruled out} you know we have a haven open to us in Eretz Yisroel.

    This is only the tip of an iceberg. There is a lot more reason for celebrating Yom ha’Atzmaut even in Chutz lo’Oretz.

    #943947
    simcha613
    Participant

    kfb- The Land of Israel is inherently holy and it is our homeland. Some people show hakaras hatov to the State of Israel because since the founding of the State, there have been more Jews and Torah in EY since around the time of the destruction of the second Beis HaMikdash. They show this hakaras hatov by celebrating the day the State of Israel was founded.

    Also, you can’t compare the ability to go to France with the ability to go to Israel. Israel is our homeland, France is not.

    #943948
    sushee
    Member

    And if the Arabs take over or bomb Israel, which haven will we run to?

    #943949
    2scents
    Participant

    147,

    I can name a lot of countries that would not have a problem if Jews settle there. The fact that EY is a place where Jews can live (I dont know why you call consider it a safe haven for Jews, Chareidim are hated intermaly and externaly in EY) is not sfficient for us to celebrate.

    I find your comment about Obama Stupid and offensive. ( I am no Obama Supporter ).

    Would you mind to share with us just a few more reasons on why we should celebrate Yom Hatzamut?

    #943950
    kfb
    Participant

    I should celebrate another country’s independence day bc maybe I might find refuge there one day?? That makes sense.

    #943951
    Avi K
    Participant

    KFB, Israel’s existence obviates the old image of the Jew as a homeless wanderer (according to their theology as a punishment for not accepting their AZ). It’s existence is a source of pride that saved and is saving Am Yisrael from complete assimilation. If you connect to Israel in some way you are connecting to the organism known as Am Yisrael, which only exists in EY, despite living in one of the Lands of Tuma (as per Chazal) and, according to the Zohar by extension Tora and Hashem.You are also connecting to a part of yourself as EY is a part of us, not a foreign country.

    #943952
    Sam2
    Participant

    Sushee: Rav Schachter quotes Rav Herzog who quotes the Ramban that we are Muvtach from HKBH that we will not have Eretz Yisrael taken from us a third time.

    #943953
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Sam: WADR to them, that is not pashut pshat in the rambam. I think most people would read it as refering to yemos hamashiach. After all, it was taken a third time after bar kochva.

    So they may be correct, but the authority is only as good as them, not as good as rambam.

    Also, maybe rav herzog thought it was yemos hamashiach, in which case there is no authority at all (bec rav shachter is only saying it bec rav herzog did)

    #943954
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    There is nothing wrong with celebrating Israeli independence, when the Yidden there who would have been wiped out by the Arabs in ’48 were saved by a Neis Niglah.

    The date in which the Arabs gave up and we “won” was the 11th of Tammuz (July 18, 1948). A day to celebrate!

    #943955
    sushee
    Member

    Ramban speaks of post Beis Hamikdash III Eretz Yisroel.

    And I would give a lot more consideration to the thoughts of any of the three shteeble rabbonim I know than R. Schachter.

    #943956
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Sam2: I heard it b’shem Rav Elyashiv too.

    2scents: Because it is your country. As for charedim being “hated”, even though there is resentment for various reasons charedim are treated as equal citizens despite the fact that many are against fulfilling any civic duties including voting. You should celebrate yom ha’atzma’ut because Israel is a Jewish country and you are Jewish.

    #943957
    Csar
    Member

    Rav Elyashev shlita referred to the Israeli Kenesset as a botei minus.

    #943958
    Avi K
    Participant

    Gavra, declaring the State in the face of American and British warnings (and the timidity of some of BG’s advisors) was the pivotal action. The rest was just making it official. Same with Jul. 4. The war was not won until Cornwallis surrendered on Oct. 19, 1781 – after the war turned around with French intervention (masterful diplomacy by Ben Franklin – who says older people cannot learn new professions?).

    #943959
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    bump

    #943960
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    It is more clear than even before tha there is no reaason to celebrate “Yom Hazmaut” since the new coalition was formed.

    It just furthers the government from anything at all to do with Torah.

    For those who consider this an aschalta degeula, there was just a huge step backwards.

    #943961
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Avi K: As in the story of Purim, we do not celebrate as long as the fighting is still going on (“Pivotal action” or not). We celebrate when the fighting is over and Boruch Hashem we were saved from being driven into the Yam.

    Sorry I didn’t respond earlier, and thanks to Popa for bumping this.

    #943962
    truthsharer
    Member

    BTW, just to defend my man Ben Franklin:

    He was not an old man learning new tricks. He was into diplomacy by the mid 1700’s, he was the peacemaker between the two main factions in the PA Assembly, and he was the Colonies’ representative to England for quite some time.

    Interesting fact, if you learn R’ Yisrael Salanter, he has a sefer where he discusses how to improve yourself one middah at a time. That was taken from a psychology book who took it from Benjamin Franklin.

    #943963
    Sam2
    Participant

    Truthsharer: I was told we have a letter by R’ Yisrael Salanter where he actually quotes that he got his ideas from Benjamin Franklin. I haven’t seen the letter myself though. I should look into that.

    #943964
    truthsharer
    Member

    If you google “benjamin franklin mussar” you can see some interesting articles about how it made its way into R’ Salanter’s mussar sefer Cheshbon Hanefesh.

    It originally was published anonymously by a maskil, and then it was put into Cheshbon Hanefesh.

    What is interesting is that Franklin wrote that the ideas should be incorporated by religious writers for their own religious spiritual accounting.

    #943965
    raul24
    Member

    The book Rav Yisroel took it from did not take it from Ben Franklin, despite some folks imaginations claiming otherwise.

    #943966
    truthsharer
    Member

    What is so horrible that you can’t accept that some ideals are taken from non-Jewish sources?

    #943967
    droish
    Member

    Nothing except the facts. And the fact is it isn’t factual. The claims otherwise are simply imagination without any proof, because none exists.

    #943968
    truthsharer
    Member

    In other words, you haven’t read any of the articles, or sefarim for that matter.

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