4th of you know what!

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  • #1308313

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Independence day! The 4th of July!

    What’s it like in frum towns on this day and night?

    Do people celebrate with their families?
    Buy stuff at 4th of July sales?
    Have BBQs?
    Wear red, white, and blue?

    Thank you 🙂

    #1308348

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    In the holy city of Brooklyn, All is quite, parking spaces can be found nary a child can be seen. You can even get in and out of the supermarket quickly

    Most of the people are up in the catskills enjoying summer fun

    #1308480

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    LB: First, please define “frum town”. I live in Brooklyn which despite having a large jewish population is not overall a frum town.

    Second:
    Do people celebrate with their families? Some do some don’t just like all secular holidays.

    Buy stuff at 4th of July sales? Depends what’s on sale.

    Have BBQs? Depend on the weather and if my family wants to eat fleishigs (I only have 1 bbq)

    Wear red, white, and blue? Most people not unless you are a Reagan republican

    #1308597

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Frum town: An area where there are at least 10 Jewish families living in a dense enough population to make up a culture, all within walking distance to a shul that they share as part of their community, and/or a suitable definition determined by context.

    Example of someone speaking to a household member in a frum town: Shimon is preparing the eruv for Shabbos, can you please pick up carrots on the way home?

    Example of someone speaking to a household member in a non-frum town: Corriander is coming over to play video games on Saturday, can you please order pizza that morning?

    Thank you 🙂

    #1308607

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    lb: Since most people in the USA will probably have Yanlel and shprintza on one side and Kathy and John on the other there are very few if any Jewish towns. On that note if my neighbors invite us again to watch the fireworks like last year I am sure we will go.

    #1308646

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    We live in a small New England town. There are enough Jews for a frum/orthodox shul and a Chabad presence on the far side of town.
    10 AM on the 4th there is a live reading of the Declaration of Independence at Town Hall. We’ll attend with many of the town’s residents Jew and Gentile alike.
    We don’t shop on July 4th. I grew up in the retail business and we believed it is one of those family holidays when stores should be closed and employees off to enjoy the day with their families.

    About 20 relatives are here at the compound from Brooklyn and NJ. It was a great Shabbos and the 4th will be full of planned sports and activities along with swimming in our pool, BBQ for lunch and supper. My eldest grandson will be delivering Divrei Torah at the meals. Our American flag will be proudly displayed on the flagpole on our front lawn.

    It is the first time since last summer that we have hosted some of these relatives and we look forward to it most years.
    After the 4th we get into high gear for our last single daughter’s wedding, which I”H will occur at our home right after the three weeks. So, with all the strong young men here, this morning after minyan and breakfast, we emptied three guest rooms and painted them. After supper we’ll put everything back. Mrs. CTL has made a long list of things to accomplish and I have no problem putting our relative/guests to work.

    #1308664

    heinemanndave
    Participant

    JULY

    #1308672

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    “Frum Areas” dont have 1 shul, that have many more than that

    Most people in frum areas dont work on the Eruv, there is a committe who does that

    #1308734

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    zd: “Shimon is preparing the eruv for Shabbos”. Not necessarily a community wide eiruv. It msybe an eiruv chatzeiros between two neighbors.

    #1308736

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Well Shimon was on the committee 🙂

    #1308740

    Solaro
    Participant

    I heard rav gifter used to hang an American flag outside his house

    #1308968

    Meno
    Participant

    The CTL compound sounds like more of a frum town than some frum towns.

    #1309046

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Thanks, Meno

    Decades ago, we decided that we would much rather have a large home and facilities to be able to host the entire extended family for Pesach, summer holidays, chasunahs, etc. than new cars every couple of years, expensive trips, lawn care and snow removal and work around the house done by paid professionals.

    My late father taught me how to do carpentry, plumbing and electrical. Mrs. CTL’s grandfather was a painter who taught her to wield a brush.

    Nothing gives greater pleasure than to host/house the entire family for Pesach. Last year we married off a daughter in our gardens, and our final daughter will wed here I”H this August

    #1309738

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I heard rav gifter used to hang an American flag outside his house

    I heard Meno hangs salamis at the top of the staircase going down to the basement.

    #1309745

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    DY……..it keeps the Redcoats from quartering soldiers in Meno’s home

    #1309754

    Workingbochur95
    Participant

    July 4th 1776 was Shiva Asar BTammuz 5533.

    For bochurim it’s a typical beis medrish day. Only bochurim in the parsha should see fireworks with their dates, as these types of venues are the most supervised dafka during this tkufa

    #1309900

    Joseph
    Participant

    Q:
    Should we celebrate July 4th?

    A:
    Well, that depends on what you mean by celebrate. Should you stop your learning to make a barbecue? I don’t think that you should celebrate that way. No; there’s no reason for that. But we hang out the American flag from this Shul on July 4th. Walk down Ocean Parkway; no flags. But here, we hang out the flag.

    Today, when so many meshuga’im are trying to desecrate the American flag, and when the wicked courts and the wicked Supreme Court, have sanctioned the desecration of the flag by ruling that burning the flag is not a crime anymore; so we have to show that we appreciate Hashem’s gift to us. America is a great gift, and I say that every Jew today should hang out a flag on the 4th of July. Even if it’s just להכעיס, just to show the liberals, to show the רשעים, that we do appreciate America.

    The foolish liberals are always trying to tell us that everywhere else is better; Only here in America it’s no good. In Kent, Ohio, the National Guard shot down four students some years back when they were protesting. What a terrible fuss the liberals made here in America. But in Beijing, in China, when the Communists shot dead two hundred students, they didn’t say a word about it. What’s done by Communists is perfectly alright. In America, these liberal bums were ruining the campuses. They were bums and they deserved to be shot; no question about it! I sent a letter to the government congratulating them.

    You have to know that the liberals and the leftists are ruining America. They are wicked people and wickedness has no calculations. They do things only because of wickedness, and therefore we should do the opposite. They want to destroy the moral fabric of America and the least we can do is show that we appreciate the great gift of America. I say that we should hang out the flag; no question about it.
    (Rav Avigdor Miller)

    #1309955

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    There is a “yesh omrim” that Independence Day should be celebrated on July 2.

    In a letter to his wife, Abigail, John Adams wrote on Jul 3 1776:

    The Second Day of July 1776, will be the most memorable Epocha, in the History of America.—I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated, by succeeding Generations, as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance by solemn Acts of Devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with Pomp and Parade, with4 Shews, Games, Sports, Guns, Bells, Bonfires and Illuminations from one End of this Continent to the other from this Time forward forever more.

    However, it seems like the halacha is not like him and we celebrate on the fourth.

    The Wolf

    #1310464

    heinemanndave
    Participant

    okok

    #1310603

    I’ve heard about Tiananmen Square, and it was probably from liberals…

    #1311528

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    My reply to Joseph’s post regarding the murder of students at Kent State was not published..blocked by the moderators.

    I take personal offense at the calling of the students ‘bums’ who ‘deserved to be shot’
    On Independence Day we celebrate our country and the freedom and rights afforded us.

    The First Amendment to the US Constitution (the one that proclaims freedom of religion) also proclaims our Rights to Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Assembly, something that was taking place on public land. Governor Rhodes acting through the Ohio National Guard sought to deny the protesters those rights.

    Why am I so personally upset? Jeffrey Miller, of New York, shot dead by the Ohio National Guard, while exercising those First Amendment Rights was my cousin.
    He is remembered and mourned to this day.

    #1311542

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Constitution doesn’t provide the right for Kent students to riot. There is no constitutional right to throwing beer bottles at police cars and breaking downtown storefronts, breaking into a bank, lighting a bonfire on the street, burning the campus ROTC building, throwing rocks at firemen and police extinguishing the fire, refusing legal (upheld) orders to disperse and instead throwing rocks and gas canisters at the National Guard, and with it all leading up to a sniper firing a gun on the guardsmen leading them to fear for their lives and rightfully return fire on the rioters.

    #1311561

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @joseph…………
    get your history straight
    The incidents you cite occurred in the Town off Kent off Campus) on May 1 and 2. The National Guard slaughtered 4 and wounded nine on campus on June 4.
    2 of those slaughtered by the National Guard were not protesters, but just students crossing the campus.
    The other 2 did not throw beer bottles at police cars or break down storefronts (there were no stores on campus where they were murdered. they were not throwing rocks at firemen or policemen extinguishing a fire.
    Yes, Jeffrey Miller threw something, he tossed back a tear gas canister in the direction from which it originated.
    Not all protesters are rioters.

    I’ve been to the site of the confrontation withing days of the killing, I’ve met and spoken with some of the protesters when this event was fresh in their minds.

    Our government did lots of terrible things using the National Guard during the 1950s, 60s and 70s dating to the Arkansas National Guard denying Black students entry to Central High School in Little Rock(50s) Governor Wallace in Georgia using the National Guard to keep Black students out of the University of Alabama (60s) and Governor Rhodes having the National Guard murder students at Kent State (70s).

    #1311623

    Joseph
    Participant

    All rioters/protesters were given a legally upheld order to disperse that they refused to obey. As such by illegally remaining in the company of the violent rioters throwing gas canisters and rocks at the police, firemen and guardsmen, even if they weren’t throwing these objects at law enforcement officers their illegal presence with those violent student goons placed themselves at their own peril and they bare responsibility for the subsequent results that occurred to them when the guardsmen rightfully opened fire after a sniper starting shooting the guardsmen.

    #1311659

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @joseph
    Still won’t admit you were wrong when confronted with facts?
    June 1 and 2 in town rioting and burning
    June 4th slaughter of students on campus.
    The 2 passersby who were killed were not ignoring an order to disperse, they weren’t part of the mob.

    Remember, National Guard Troops are VOLUNTEERS, not draftees. They willingly join and take pay for a job that may put them in direct line of fire. This is quite different than the hundreds of thousands of young American males who were drafted and sent to fight/die in Viet Nam at that time.

    You and I will never agree on this matter, BUT I will call you out if you post ‘alternative facts’

    #1311673

    akuperma
    Participant

    One should remember that America was the first country in which Jews had civil right (from 1787 with the prohibition of religious tests), and that but for America the Third Reich would be in control of all of Europe including Eretz Yisrael. That the Americans had the zechus to be used by Ha-Shem to save us speaks for itself.

    And while the Democrats want to change this, America is and remains the global champion of freedom of religion, where most of the western world favors “freedom from religion.”

    #1311692

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Funny, most of the people I know who think Muslims shouldn’t be granted freedom of religion are Republicans.

    #1311810

    DovidBT
    Participant

    “Remember, National Guard Troops are VOLUNTEERS, not draftees.”

    But in 1970, when the Kent State event took place, the draft was still in effect. Many men joined the National Guard to avoid getting drafted into the Army.

    #1311826

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    DovidBT….
    It doesn’t matter why they VOLUNTEERED, they VOLUNTEERED. Being drafted was not a certainty. There were deferments (ask our country’s leader). I went through a year of eligibility not knowing if they’d get to my number in the draft lottery. I took that chance, I didn’t volunteer for the National Guard.

    I knew plenty of young men who volunteered for National Guard as a way to pay for college. Two weeks service in the summer and one weekend a month and college was paid for. Most didn’t get called up to put down college protests and shoot fellow citizens.

    In 1970 I was 18…prime draft material…how old were you? History books don’t really convey the feeling in the USA regarding the war in Viet Nam or Nixon’s incursions into Cambodia (which was the reason for the protest at Kent State).

    #1311844

    DovidBT
    Participant

    “It doesn’t matter why they VOLUNTEERED, they VOLUNTEERED.”

    Of course it matters, if they felt they were pressured into “volunteering.”

    “In 1970 I was 18…prime draft material…how old were you?”

    I was draftable too.

    #1311914

    lesschumras
    Participant

    CT, please stop being such a smug know it all. The kids who were protesting and the ones who were shot were lucky enough to have parents wealthy enough to pay their college tuition and thus be deferred. I was 20 and I heard how these students would taunt National Guardsmen who were often the same age but from poorer families. You only spoke to protesters ( who of course were completely unbiased ) and none of the “slaughterers”. The Guardsmen were kids with six months basic training, none of it in riot control. Given the prior days events who knows what they were expecting nor what caused the first shot. The loss of your relative is warping your judgement

    #1311937

    Joseph
    Participant

    The guardsmen were shot at by a sniper, which triggered their response shots.

    #1312033

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The National Guard at that time was a way to avoid getting sent to Vietnam. It was actually well connected people Like former President Bush who were usually in tha guard so they wouldnt get drafted.

    But it doesnt matter, the protestets were peaceful and at least of the people shot was an innocent bystander and anyway protesting is not a capital crime

    #1312076

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @lesschumras
    My judgment is not warped by the loss of a relative. I was anti-Viet Nam War from about 1965. I have been anti-Gun as long as I can remember (probably from the age of 5 or 6 when I saw someone shot dead in a store holdup.
    You have no idea whether those protesting were those with ‘parents wealthy enough to pay college tuition and thus be deferred’
    FIFTY PER CENT of those killed by the National Guard were FEMALE and NOT subject to the draft and did not hold student deferments.

    I was in university at this time. My parents did NOT pay for my tuition. It was paid for by my labor and loans, signed for and paid for by me.

    Your idea that National Guardsmen came from Poor families is NOT necessarily so…Prime Example: former President George W Bush who avoided Viet Nam while in the Texas Air National Guard…nice WASP Millionaire parents.

    #1312077

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @lesschumras
    I posted that I met and spoke to some of the protesters while the events were fresh in their minds. This did not mean that I only spoke to protesters. I also spoke to University officials/staff. local law enforcement and citizens. The National Guard was not permitted to speak at that time.

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