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Some people have the minhag to avoid making kiddush between 6 and 7. Among those with the minhag, there are some who switch to avoiding it between 7 and 8 during DST as that is the time frame that would be 6 to 7 if clocks didn’t change.
Personally, I already don’t understand the second camp. In theory, the issue is during the 7th hour after midday, but clock-noon is treated as the “average midday” rather than it shifting every week with zmanim. Furthermore, regions where clock-noon is nowhere near average midday (eg. areas far to one side of a time zone) still observe the minhag from 6 to 7 without adjusting.
Once the minhag departed from being connected to halachic chatzos or even the mathematical average and instead is based on 6 hours after when the clock happens to say 12, why adjust for DST? Why is that different than adjusting for region?
If a region switched to permanent DST, would even the second camp concede that the issue would be between 6 and 7, or would they forever switch to 7-8?
The minhag has probably sources in astrology, so if you think that our DST affects the stars, your gaavah is above the migdal Bavel and should be a bigger issue for you than davening b’zmano.
“If a region switched to permanent DST, would even the second camp concede that the issue would be between 6 and 7, or would they forever switch to 7-8?”
Obviously minhagim vary , but most do not shift ” every week with zmanim. ” nor should they ,
they should forever switch to 7-8.
There are a few different Shitos as to how to calculate the 6th hour. Some consider it the first hour of Shabbos, some 6th hour after the actual chatzos of that day. Most (who follow this minhag) do so 6th hour after the average Chatzos .As you allude though average chatzos is not exactly 12 noon since it varies longitudinally. Yes some do adjust for this though in NY it is a slight difference
Astronomical average noon is 12:04 in NYC EST so the 6th hour is 6:04 – 7:04 PM EST. during DST , average noon is 1:04 PM DST so the 6th hour is 7:04-8:04 PM which his pretty close to 7-8. In Lakewood its even closer , in Phiidelphia whci his the center of time zone Standard time = EST“as for areas at the far side of a time zone,”
In those cases those who do not adjust for the change from standard time to time zones (I thought people did, some certianly do), harder to understand that approach. I suspect it isnt based on any real shita. I dont know anyone who “holds” this way I think it might be a mistake in which case hard to know what they “should” do since it is anyway probably wrong“If a region switched to permanent DST, would even the second camp concede that the issue would be between 6 and 7, or would they forever switch to 7-8?”
Obviously minhagim vary , but most do not shift ” every week with zmanim. ” nor should they ,
they should forever switch to 7-8.
There are a few different Shitos as to how to calculate the 6th hour. Some consider it the first hour of Shabbos, some 6th hour after the actual chatzos of that day. Most (who follow this minhag) do so 6th hour after the average Chatzos .As you allude though average chatzos is not exactly 12 noon since it varies longitudinally. Yes some do adjust for this though in NY it is a slight difference
Astronomical average noon is 12:04 in NYC EST so the 6th hour is 6:04 – 7:04 PM EST. during DST , average noon is 1:04 PM DST so the 6th hour is 7:04-8:04 PM which his pretty close to 7-8. In Lakewood its even closer , in Phiidelphia whci his the center of time zone Mean local time = EST“as for areas at the far side of a time zone,”
In those cases those who do not adjust for the change from mean local time to time zones (I thought people did, some certianly do), harder to understand that approach. I suspect it isnt based on any real shita. I dont know anyone who “holds” this way I think it might be a mistake in which case hard to know what they “should” do since it is anyway probably wrong(other version had mistake, fixed in this verions)
I am not directly familiar with this Minhag (I’ve heard it referenced numerous times and seem to under the impression that it is based on the Rmabam), but wouldn’t it be based solely on Shaos Zmaniyos?
Still mistake in my comment though point still holds
I added instead of subtracted NY is earlier than Phili (more east) not later
Mean solar noon is 11:56 in NYC EST so the 6th hour is 5:56 – 6:56PM EST. during DST , average noon is 12:56 PM DST so the 6th hour is 6:56 – 7:56PMI just discovered a website: 6thhour dot com in whci hcan enter location and it tells you when the 6th hour is
“but wouldn’t it be based solely on Shaos Zmaniyos?”
although there is such an approach I dont think this is standard (for those who follow this minhag) The “rulership” of maazalos dont depend on the the zemanei hayom. Granted I dont understand what this means but comes up in Shas a few times where each mazal has an hour
Asking around I did hear some people say they do 6-7 all year round, maybe it is a “real shita” though I agree with you that it is starange and I’m not sure why they would change for DST
“To be fair, your post has caused me to realize there are more adjusters than I thought.”
And vice versa! I (your post led me to realize there are less than I thought)
“So each community would have to know what the average noon is for their exact longitude?”
this was in last post but worth repeating so you dont miss it:
I just discovered a website: 6thhour dot com in which can enter location and it tells you when the 6th hour is
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