December 27, 2011 9:34 am at 9:34 am #840047
The ywn links posted on this thread by the editor are most helpful for those not in Beit shemesh or surrounding areas to get a flavour of what is going on.
The area of Beit Shemesh has always had a mixed population in terms of observance, the so called “charedi” that have moved in have no right to move into an area and insult its inhabitants and disrupt local life.
One of my children works in a hospital close by, it seem ironical that he is a frum doctor treating people whom he may see later on screaming abuse at children as they walk to school, children clad in long sleeved, high necked tops and long loose skirts.
No one should be screamed at, no one should be insulted, egged, spat upon or threatened, irrespective of their dress. As a grandmother and mother it is so deeply distressing to think of jews behaving like this to other jews.
Where is the modesty in insulting and rubbishing women and little girls, hear the language yelled at this people and it is obscene, not jewish, certainly not charedi and plain wrong.
check out the ywn links for your own information, some of the other links on you tube and national press are too distressing to watch. I pray that soon some of our great rabbis will speak out as this cannot continue, religious indignation is being used to score political points and destroy a country, enough jewish blood has been split over the years, we do not need to torment our own.December 27, 2011 10:50 am at 10:50 am #840048
I am very familiar with the area that is being discussed and the people involved on both sides.
It is quite clear that many posters have never been to this particular area, and certainly do not live there. To these people I say the following:
I dare say that those here who are offering judgments on where this school has a right to exist or who is frum and who is not are putting their own ignorance and their own stupidity in direct competition with each other. A far as I am concerned, those comments cast a large shadow on the posters’ capacity for normative reasoning.December 27, 2011 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #840049
Heath, the chassidim there are entitled to beleive that the tznius is not ‘good enough’ and maybe that they can try to educate this woman in the laws of Tznius but they are not entitled to rein violence as they have been doing. they can get away with it because the Israeli government is feckless and does not enforce the laws that these chassidim have broken. the spitters are not afraid of any long term jail sentence that will not occur. In CHu’l they would be arrested and locked up for many years so they don’t do these things, and possibly the chassidim have different sort of leaders in Brooklyn that does not encourage such vile acts.
It is not as if these chassidic communities are not without internal problems of their own, they do not need to pick on and bully others who are different thant they are.
Have you ever heard of living together peacefull,? Shevet Achim Gam Yachad?
Do these Chassidim who spit and yell, do they honestly think that Hashem is happy with them?
Why this focus on Tznius on other people, is this a coverup of all the aveiros that occur in the Chassidic commnuties?
Old man, Israel is a democratic society you want to build a school, you can, you follow building codes and laws.
If they don’t like it there they should move to Brooklyn, let’s see them spit on people in Brooklyn and get away with that crime. they are lucky the Israeli government is too prissy and lets them get away with these crimes.December 27, 2011 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #840050
I would like to hear one GOOD REASON why its ok K-Halacha to spit and throw things at an 8 year old girl EVEN if they are dressed in a Bikini (Which they are CLEARLY not here)December 27, 2011 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #840051
realist4u -“The story said that the girl was WALKING to school, which is located 300 meters away, she was by herself,and if not then I didnt hear the story right,”
No where in the story does it say she was walking alone and you came to this conclusion because of your inner hatred towards them. Go watch the video from the TV station that started this story. They demonsrate the walk everyday from her house and her mother takes her.
“Are you a “buki” in hilchos mussar do you know when to give and when not to give, my assumtion, based on what you wrote by “screaming at her mother”, anyone who knows hows to give mussar EFFECTIVLY knows its not done through screaming.”
I’m not going re-educate you, but e/o knows they aren’t trying to Mekarev anyone or give Mussar. If you don’t know why they do it -maybe start a topic about it here in the CR.
“And no one said that the modern “justify” their actions because of how they are treated, what came first their actions or the spitting so I would venture to say its the chareidim justifying their actions by the dress of the “modern” if you will.”
Wrong, you just proved how you are full of Sinas Chinum you are by saying “chareidim justifying their actions by the dress of the “modern” if you will”, by saying Chareidim you imply ALL Chareidim, yet most have condemned the spitting or at the very least they don’t condone it. It you would have said a very few, then you would have a point, but you can’t admit the truth, can you?December 27, 2011 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #840052
adams -“Do these Chassidim who spit and yell, do they honestly think that Hashem is happy with them?”
Well Hashem is happy with the screaming -I don’t agree with the spitting.
“Why this focus on Tznius on other people, is this a coverup of all the aveiros that occur in the Chassidic commnuties?”
Because these people flaunt it in their face. But your surmise is based on your hatred towards them.
“If they don’t like it there they should move to Brooklyn,”
This is the most hypocritical statement I’ve ever heard. Why don’t you look up the statistics of whom is trying to emigrate to America and whom is trying to make Aliya? By and far it’s the Freye whom want to get out and live here and it’s the Frumme who want to make Aliya. The only reason they still have millions of Non-religious in Israel is because the gov. makes all these laws that they can’t leave!
The Charedim want to live in E. Yisroel for Kedusha. They tolerate the Modern & Freye upto a point. And that point is having the Modern school next to their houses where they have to see Untzinus adults everyday.
If anything these Modern Jews who made Aliya should move back to wherever they came from!December 27, 2011 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #840053
I am not expert, But I know this one can NEVER give Mussur out of hate.
You are supposed to give it out of loveDecember 27, 2011 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #840054MiddlePathParticipant
It really saddens me that different types of Jews cannot get along. There is a difference between acceptance and tolerance. One doesn’t have to accept the ways of another group of Jews, but one should be able to tolerate it without getting violent.
You NEVER EVER should scream or spit at another Jew that you don’t know, no matter how they are dressed. There is no justification at all to do that. You may not have to accept the Jews that don’t dress according to your standards (although you really should), but you MUST be able to tolerate it and live peacefully with each other. Otherwise, we are in for a very long exile.
Screaming at others is simply a lack of good middos. And if you keep all of “halachah”, and know Shas by heart, but lack good middos, it is worth NOTHING. Absolutely NOTHING.December 27, 2011 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #840055
how is this flaunt in your face?
Here you have shomer shabbos people who are dressed Tznius. What power gives these Chassidim the right to denounce them and spit on them? As if there is not crimes of all types by the Chasssidim, or are you thinking they are all pure and holy ? what Kedusha, the chassidim in Beis Shemesh have now defiled whatever Kedusha might have been there. Please stop posting assumptions about posters.
Please stop Heath stating lies about what I and others think. You look very stupid when you argue that way. I probably shouldn’t even point that out, the more yo do that, the more ridiculous you look. But I don’t want to because that is not my way.
Not true at all about those leaving Israel. ALthough that was not my contention, you will find people leaving from all sectors of society. if anything more frei return after a few years abroad, going to University, or starting a small business. There are no laws that prevent Israelis from leaving, you are telling lies again or you are not informed. GO to any large city in any country in the world, you will see Israelis living there, many of them do return to Israel. I happen to know many Chariedishe Israelis who are in America for Tzmitus.
It’s high time for these extremist elements to stop, as well as the general feeling in the Chareishi and Chassidesh world that the are ‘better’ than people who don’t dress like they do.
The attitude is here in the states also.December 27, 2011 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #840056
zahavasdad -“I am not expert, But I know this one can NEVER give Mussur out of hate.
You are supposed to give it out of love”
They have no intention of giving Mussar!December 27, 2011 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #840057
Middlepath, thank you for your post!December 27, 2011 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #840058
They have no intention of giving Mussar!
Arent you defending those who are spitting , cursing and throwing things at the girls who are dressed “untzniut”December 27, 2011 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #840059mamashtakahMember
And that point is having the Modern school next to their houses where they have to see Untzinus adults everyday.
Then they should move to Bnei Brak, or Kiryat Sefer, or Mea Shearim. If it bothers them that much, let them build a wall around their neighborhood so they can’t see out. Or, let them put veils around their hats.
If anything these Modern Jews who made Aliya should move back to wherever they came from!
Why should they? Living in E”Y is a mitzva dioraita. Maybe the chareidim who have the problem with the school should move back to their shtetles in Poland or Romania or where ever they came from.December 27, 2011 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #840060
adams -“how is this flaunt in your face?”
They parade in Not-Tzinus dress next to where they live. This is called starting up, no matter how you twist it.
“Here you have shomer shabbos people who are dressed Tznius.”
A simple lie. They aren’t dressed Tzinus!!!
“As if there is not crimes of all types by the Chasssidim, or are you thinking they are all pure and holy ?”
Not all, but this line shines of your extreme Sinas Chinum!
“what Kedusha, the chassidim in Beis Shemesh have now defiled whatever Kedusha might have been there.”
The actions of a few spitting means that no Charedi lives in Kedusha anymore. Ok- whatever you say! As long as you call this logic!
“There are no laws that prevent Israelis from leaving, you are telling lies again or you are not informed. GO to any large city in any country in the world, you will see Israelis living there, many of them do return to Israel.”
This is an absolute falsehood. They give them such a hard time just to visit America, let alone permanetly leave. Go visit an Israeli Interior office and see for yourself.
“I happen to know many Chariedishe Israelis who are in America for Tzmitus.”
This is usually just Satmar types.
“as well as the general feeling in the Chareishi and Chassidesh world that the are ‘better’ than people who don’t dress like they do.”
It has nothing to do with better. They don’t like to see people Not listening to the Torah. If you want to do what you want – at least do it in a place which isn’t right next to them. How about Chaifa, Tel Aviv, NYC and the list goes on…?December 27, 2011 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #840061
So I just watched the video from Israeli TV and I don’t see any problem with the kid. There’s no excuse for the spitting, period. (Was the spitting on video, cause I didn’t see it, or did the mother or someone just claim someone spit her?) Anyways, I agree with Health that the mother of this girl, when she was walking her to the school next to the ultra-Orthodox neighborhood, was NOT dressed tzniyus. Her skirt was short. If someone is very frum I can understand their objections to her (the mother) walking by their neighborhood like that. Again, no excuse for spitting. But the daily protests against the school is more understandable. (BTW, the A.P. is quoting this mother today as saying any woman should have a right to walk sleeveless in the ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods, to give some perspective on who you are dealing with.)
The guy who spit is a meshugene. Its not like its happening often. There is one reported such incidence. The media is using one guy spitting as a mass hysteria event to attack all frum Jews. If some chiloni guy in Tel Aviv spit on a child it would be a non event. I’m sure it has happened more than once there. You would never hear about it in the media. At most the guy would get a summons with a 200 shekel fine. You wouldn’t have chilonim calling for the murder of 10 random people, as some chiloni was quoted in the Israeli media today advocating 10 random Chareidim be murdered to teach them a lesson not to spit.December 27, 2011 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #840062
Health: If they have no intention of giving Mussar/Tochachah then how is the yelling Muttar? It should be Halbanas Pnei Chaveiro B’rabim.December 27, 2011 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #840063soliekMember
so on the subject of using violence against them…i have no problem with that. if one of them gets out of line violent i see no problem with a cop beating the living daylights out of him.December 27, 2011 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #840064
MP -“Screaming at others is simply a lack of good middos.”
It depends on the situation. If you are screaming at them L’shem Shomayim, then there is nothing wrong. And they do tolerate the Moderne/Freye behavior as long as they don’t come in or near their neighborhood dressed however they feel like!
Can you imagine if I decided to burn a cross outside a church -do you think the Goyim would just spit and curse at me or do much worse? Most people here would condenm the cross burning and defend the Goyim, even if the guy was killed or beaten up.
These Jews act with much restraint, even though the Moderne start up with them everyday in their neighborhood.
There is a saying – when in Rome do as the Romans do!
Move your school -if you must bring your kids dressed in the manner that you do!December 27, 2011 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #840065
I didn’t make myself clear before, so I will now.
If you have been in Bet Shemesh, you know that the school is legitimate and legal and the students and their parental escorts pose no moral, spiritual or physical threat to anyone. If you have never been in Bet Shemesh and are not familiar with what and where this school is, then with all due respect, put a lid on it, you are clueless. You sound worse than stupid and you are making a fool of yourself.December 27, 2011 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #840066Queen BeeMember
“If you are screaming at them L’shem Shomayim, then there is nothing wrong.”
Maybe you’re right that there is nothing “wrong”, but I think speaking in a soft, respectful way is better than screaming. And has a greater effect.
And I completely agree with MP’s post. Middos rise above all.December 27, 2011 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #840067
old man: clearly not all Bet Shemesh residents agree with your claim.December 27, 2011 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #840068
Health: I just watched a video with the girl in question. Her mother’s hair is covered.December 27, 2011 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #840069mamashtakahMember
These Jews act with much restraint . . .
I guess we have a different view of things then. My parents taught me that throwing bricks and dirty diapers, screaming at people, and spitting on others, was not a nice thing to do. These things are certainly not what most normal people would call acting with restraint.
. . . even though the Moderne start up with them everyday in their neighborhood.
The school is not in “their” neighborhood.December 27, 2011 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #840070
I would like you to name ONE POSEK who says its ok to yell and spit at an 8 year old girl in Bet Shemesh.
Where does it say in M”B , A”M or S”A that its ok to do so?December 27, 2011 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #840071MiddlePathParticipant
Thanks for agreeing with me, tahini and QB!
About screaming at people, the only situation I can think of that it may be okay is when the person in question is someone you know well enough and respects you enough to take your “screaming” the right way, and understands you are doing it because you care about them. Other than that, one should never scream at another person. And DEFINITELY not at someone you don’t know. The vast majority of people wouldn’t respond well to being screamed at by a complete stranger. It just doesn’t work.December 27, 2011 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #840072
Doswin: And clearly, you have never been in that particular area. So I include you in my comment.December 27, 2011 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #840073
So then, it would be ok for secular or non hassidic Israelis to curse and spit, at Hassidim who happen to walk in ‘their’ the non Hassidim neighborhoods? Who are offended at their dress? No one has any right to do that sorry. its a 2 way street. respect for all. If you see something that you don’t like, look away.
ANd you see where this cursing and yelling, leads to? Even you are against the spitting, but once you set the stage to violence this happens. I hope it doesn’t get worse.December 27, 2011 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #840074
If, as is claimed, this girl was walking with her mother who was not dressed appropriately which provoked the response, why didn’t this fellow spit at the mother? Why the girl?December 27, 2011 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #840075
Because the guy who spit is a meshugene. And the only one accused of spitting. One unaffiliated loner did something and the media is using one man’s stupidity to defame all frum Jews.December 27, 2011 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #840076
Fine the one guy is a meshugene, But why did the community errupt when they tried to arrest him.
I dont blame the community for the meshugene, I blame them for harboring and protecting him.December 27, 2011 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #840077on the ballParticipant
Those men who spit and scream at women/girls are hypocrites of the worst sort. They protest on the pretext of standing up for the honour of the Torah but give no regard whatsoever to Issurim D’Oraysoh (Biblical Prohibitions) that they are likely transgressing.
1) Bal Tashchis – throwing eggs that are fit for human consumption is a blatant transgression of this Issur of wasting things.
2) Embarrassing a fellow Jew. The Torah states clearly that when you rebuke a fellow Jew you should do so in a way that does not involve transgression i.e. by embarrassing them. Chazal say that one who embarrasses another in public forfeits his right to Olom Haba (The World to Come)
3) Chilul Hashem – The actions of these men has caused people around the world and more devastatingly, non-frum Jews, to abhor the Charedi communities and lifestyle that these men purport to represent. Again, Chazal say that one who causes a Chilul Hashem forfeits his right to Olom Haba (The World to Come).
4) Bitul Torah – these people are wasting valuable time that they could be spending learning Torah.
5) Gezel – If they damage anybody’s clothes or possessions by throwing eggs or faeces at them they transgress the Issur of Gezel (stealing). Additionally, if they are enrolled in a Kolel and are being paid to learn and are taking time off to carry out these protests, then they are stealing.
Have any of these men given thought to any of these severe Issurim? Have any asked the Shayla to any Rav if their concerns over Tznius override these Issurim?
I suspect not as I do not believe any Rav would sanction their actions.
This is proof that these ‘Charedim’ are nothing but fakers who do not care about Hashem or His Holy Torah. It would not surprise me in the least if these same people who attack and harass little girls ostensibly out of huge concern for Tznius, have a secret Tznius-related problem (V’hamayven Yovin) for which they are over-compensating.December 27, 2011 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #840078
Just saw an AP video of this story on Huffington Post. Ignoring the one narrating the video just watching the scenes taped, begs the question, why so many obviously litvishe bachurim are hanging around on the sidewalk around the area of the Toldos Avram Yitzchak Beis Medrash (thats the BM that is shown in the video)? They appear to be egging on the few people who are obviously part of the group the story is about and who the cameraman is trying to tape. Having second, third and fourth doubts about allowing my own sons to go to E”Y.December 27, 2011 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #840079emunah613Member
BS is not a moshav. Every store, medical clinic, and street has ALL types of Jews-dressed accordingly. From secular to chassidic. There are actually quite a few Phillipinos (women caretakers dressed in jeans) walking around that same area. When these people bought their apartments they KNEW where they were living. They saw that there are THREE modern Orthodox communities that preexisted their buildings. They bought anyway. All of this is a territorial struggle for the goal of acquiring the municipal school building through intimidation. This type of strong arm tactic has previously worked in Meah Shearim and Bnei Brak and they are now hoping to use the same old methods in BS. Only this time they are dealing with olim from democratic countries who will fight to their last breath to not give up their homes they sacrificed so much for! If they really cared for tznius, they could try to be mekarev the women through their own wives and rebbetzins. If they really cared so much about tznius they could move into Nachal Umenucha/Kiryat HaCharedit-a completely insular community with the strictest tznius standards. It’s a land grab. Nothing to do with any Torah ideals. As their level of frustration grows, the methods get scarier. The demonstration is a stop gap measure to let them realize that everyone is on to them, including the Charedi MK’s who spoke out. Now the ball is in their court. Hopefully they will quietly skulk back under the rock they crawled out from.December 27, 2011 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #840080Y.W. EditorKeymaster
@apushatayid if you want a reason not to send your children to Israel here is some more reasons:
Keep your kids home.
Period.December 27, 2011 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #840081
Rabbi Horowitz of Project yes has posted on his Blog that everyone should write to the newspapers condeming the protests in Bet Shemesh and its a Chilul HashemDecember 27, 2011 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #840082
Mod’s Please combine this with my above post
The Belzer Rebbe has also condemed the protestsDecember 27, 2011 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #840083
Thank you Y.W. Editor for your link highlighting the behaviour of wayward bochurim in Jerusalem.
As a parent of a yeshiva student I feel strongly this is not about yeshivas taking in students without proper care and responsible guidance, this is also about young men with too many hours in the day and night to mess about with and get into trouble.
If you are able to afford to send your children away from home to study Torah consider what is truly proper Torah study, is there time for chesed, helping the poor and disabled in Jerusalem, if not, why not? Is there time to teach English, sport or music to poor and disadvantaged children, if not, why not? If there is proper use of time for Torah study with all hours used appropriately for study and play then why is there time to riot and misbehave.
There is a terrible risk of young boys getting radicalised beyond their parents understanding, learning not to feel part of klal yisrael, but part of an imaginary superior sect far removed from Torah true values, able to act as they please with mentors and teachers failing to do their duty.December 27, 2011 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #840084
@42. Thanks for the tip 🙂December 27, 2011 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #840085
I think the mother of this 8 year old girl should invite the spitter and his family for a shabbos seudah.December 27, 2011 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #840086
I think the mother of this 8 year old girl should invite the spitter and his family for a shabbos seudah.December 27, 2011 11:47 pm at 11:47 pm #840087
I think the mother of this 8 year old girl should invite the spitter and his family for a shabbos seudah.December 28, 2011 12:40 am at 12:40 am #840089
He wouldn’t come if he feels shes dressed non tznius.December 28, 2011 1:50 am at 1:50 am #840090
mamashtakah -“Then they should move to Bnei Brak, or Kiryat Sefer, or Mea Shearim. If it bothers them that much, let them build a wall around their neighborhood so they can’t see out. Or, let them put veils around their hats.”
Instead of blaming the Moderne for the situation -you blame the Chareidim. And what is your solution -they should move out or build a wall. This will cause considerable expense and inconvience, but who cares because the Freye & Moderne are right.
Might makes Right.
How about this solution? The fathers bring the girls to school or the mothers dress Tzinus for the few minutes every day of bringing and picking up the kids?
“Why should they? Living in E”Y is a mitzva dioraita. Maybe the chareidim who have the problem with the school should move back to their shtetles in Poland or Romania or where ever they came from.”
Well the MO “Frum” Jews can move to the West Bank with all the other MO’s that live there. Then they can dress the way they want and can help their buddies attack & burn Mosques. And when they aren’t busy doing that – they can infiltrate army bases and attack the soldiers there. And you MO’s call the Charedim violent because of s/o who spat?!?
“I guess we have a different view of things then. My parents taught me that throwing bricks and dirty diapers, screaming at people, and spitting on others, was not a nice thing to do. These things are certainly not what most normal people would call acting with restraint.”
Oh, and most of the Charedim do this, not just a very few!
“The school is not in “their” neighborhood.”
They are right next door.December 28, 2011 1:56 am at 1:56 am #840091
Sam2 -“Health: If they have no intention of giving Mussar/Tochachah then how is the yelling Muttar? It should be Halbanas Pnei Chaveiro B’rabim.”
They don’t have a Din of “Chaveiro”.
Sam & MiddlePath –
And if you want to know the reason why -I posted above that s/o should start a topic about it. People will post why they scream. If they don’t I will explain it!December 28, 2011 1:58 am at 1:58 am #840092
Doswin -“old man: clearly not all Bet Shemesh residents agree with your claim.”
+10December 28, 2011 2:04 am at 2:04 am #840093
Sam2 -“Health: I just watched a video with the girl in question. Her mother’s hair is covered.”
The picture that I was referring to was taken on her couch during some interview, not the video. Tons of hair is sticking out from her hat. Perhaps the back is a “fall”, but I clearly saw more than a Tefech of front hair!December 28, 2011 2:19 am at 2:19 am #840094
adams -“No one has any right to do that sorry. its a 2 way street. respect for all. If you see something that you don’t like, look away.”
They do look away, but this in their face. Right next door to their housing.
“So then, it would be ok for secular or non hassidic Israelis to curse and spit, at Hassidim who happen to walk in ‘their’ the non Hassidim neighborhoods? Who are offended at their dress?”
What kind of dream world are you leaving in? What you don’t think Freye start up with Frum Jews all the time? Just most Frum try to avoid them. Not only that they attack one another all the time. Did you ever hear of crime? So the whole Freye media decided Ya know there is no more murders, rapes, burglaries, drug pushing and every social problem that we have here in the US over there, so we have to report on the terrible crimes in the Frum neighborhoods.
Hear ye. Hear Ye. – S/o spat on a girl. S/o made a woman sit in the back of the bus.
This is classic Antisemitism and even the Leftist, Lib,
Pres. Peres admitted the incitement from the media!December 28, 2011 2:24 am at 2:24 am #840095
The 8 year old girl?December 28, 2011 3:00 am at 3:00 am #840096ParshamanMember
I agree with apushatayid, if someone else is acting improperly then the best way to fix it is to show them how to act properly maybe even bring them some water and food while they are standing and protesting. show them that we care and if they wanna protest thats fine but it doesnt take away from our mitzvah of v’ahavta lreacha kamocha.December 28, 2011 3:59 am at 3:59 am #840097
Health: Please stop with your ridiculous assertions about Rei’acha, Amcha, etc. No one can claim that these people are Mumarin Lechol Hatorah Kula. Regardless of how they hold on certain issues, that’s just blatantly false.
- The topic ‘8 year old gets spit on by chassidim’ is closed to new replies.