Home › Forums › Decaffeinated Coffee › Commemorating the 20th of Sivan
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June 9, 2023 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #2198334Reb EliezerParticipant
See https://www.jewishpress. com/sections/features/features-on-jewish-world/a-day-of-tragedies-20-sivan/2021/08/19/
June 11, 2023 12:36 am at 12:36 am #2198518SQUARE_ROOTParticipantOn the Jewish calendar, EVERY DAY is filled with countless tragedies, from the first day or the year, to the last day of the year, and 100% of the days in between.
This entire discussion is pointless, and should be deleted.
June 11, 2023 1:55 am at 1:55 am #2198529Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantReb E, this was a good suggestion for a Shoah commemoration. As of now, we ended up with a day accepted by some, and not accepted by others because it was established by the first ones. Maybe we should use Sivan 20 for all Yidden who perished in 20th century perturbations, (in chronological order): whether WW1, Russian civil war, communist labor camps, Nazi persecutions, Hungarian 1956 rebellion, Arab revolutions, Israeli wars …
June 11, 2023 1:56 am at 1:56 am #2198531yungermanSParticipantAs soon as we return to Hashem through serious teshuva and Achdus together as one loving nation then Hashem will be able to stop sending klal yisroel horrific tragedies that we think we can fool Hashem that we don’t get his wake up call for serious teshuva and Achdus ASAP and then Hashem can send Mashiach already bkarov with us then we will be restarting to be makriv daily karbanos in the third Bais hamikdosh which will stay built forever.
June 11, 2023 9:47 am at 9:47 am #2198590Reb EliezerParticipantAlways, the Hungarian rabbonim made an edict that the day should be designated as the niftarim whose yahrzeit is not known.
June 11, 2023 11:00 am at 11:00 am #2198606AviraDeArahParticipantSome of my rebbeim spoke about 20 sivan. I don’t understand people who take issue with it or go as far as square(I’ve never heard such things in person, baruch Hashem) to repudiate something many tzadikim taught to do.
Jewish communities the world over had significant dates that they used to commemorate bad and good occasions. 20 sivan was from among the more widespread.
June 11, 2023 11:00 am at 11:00 am #2198595Reb EliezerParticipantDownload https://hebrewbooks.org/37858 written by Rav Moshe Hanover from that time ת’ח ות’ט 1648-49.
June 11, 2023 11:01 am at 11:01 am #2198612Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantwhich is mostly the same as niftarim from the wars.. does this override the minhag of using the date the person was last seen?
June 11, 2023 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #2198643ToShmaParticipantThanks R.E. for the Hebrewwboks page reference.
June 11, 2023 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #2198658Menachem ShmeiParticipantSquare,
Your disrespect is shocking. If the topic doesn’t interest you, don’t post.
This fast is brought in Magen Avraham (או”ח סו”ס תקפה)
נוהגין להתענות עשרים בסיום בכל מלכות פוליןEven for those who don’t fast, it is a day that can be spent in teshuva and introspection. Davening for the end to our suffering in golus and the coming of Moshiach.
See Sefer Hasichos 5751 vol. 2 pg. 611
June 11, 2023 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #2198659Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantBy the way, current estimates of Jewish casualties are lower than it was before – in tens of thousands rather than 100,000 and higher, primarily because Jewish communities in Ukraine were small and dispersed, as the Jews were managing Polish farms, and probably had 50,000 people total. By those times, it was understandable that stories and rumors created an impression of an even bigger suffering that it was, given the high proportional devastation.
At the same time, this rebellion led to further occupation of Poland by Sweden and Russia, leading to huge losses both in Polish and Jewish population immediately then, and eventually bringing Jews into Russian empire, with all the suffering that this entailed. So, maybe the focus of remembering 1648 is in a longer term effect rather than immediate.
June 11, 2023 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #2198676anonymous JewParticipantThe common response on his site to a distinct day of commemoration for the Holocaust has always been no, it’s included in Tisha B’Av. What makes 20th of Sivan different?
June 11, 2023 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #2198684AviraDeArahParticipantAnon, great question!
The gedolim were opposed to making a Holocaust day for a number of reasons. The chazon ish said that we’re not on the level of previous generations to declare commemorative days. Others said that it would inevitably fall into the narrative of the zionists, who profane the Holocaust as the epitome of Jewish failure in exile and “proof” that we need a state with an army etc…
June 11, 2023 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #2198685AviraDeArahParticipantOthers say that the Holocaust was so huge and daunting that it transcends just one day; since we’re not empowered to make restrictive days like Tisha baav, and a simple commemoration like 29 sivan wouldn’t suffice, our hands are tied.
June 11, 2023 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm #2198715Reb EliezerParticipantTisha Beov became the commemorative day for the holocaust when we say on it extra kinus.
June 12, 2023 12:46 pm at 12:46 pm #2198949mdd1ParticipantAlways…, learn the facts and stop with the anti-Russian propaganda. The territories taken from Poland by Russia in the 17-th and 18-th centuries were the territories of the early Russia occupied by Poland-Lithuania, and they still had their Russian population (the Ukrainian and White-Russian varieties). The only exception was Lithuania proper taken at the end of the 1700-s, but it was the Lituanians who started with occupation of the Russian lands in the 1300-s. Immediate losses among the Yidden were worse than the Tach-veTat?!? For sure not true. Later suffering under Russia? You mean the pogroms in which the Ukrainians had a disproportionate role?
June 12, 2023 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #2199087anonymous JewParticipantMdd1, apparently you never heard of the Pale, heavy taxation, unfair court system, pogroms initiated by Czars to distract the peasants , forced Russian education etc
June 12, 2023 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #2199115mdd1ParticipantAnonymous…, heavy taxation and unfair courts were worse than 1648-49?!? Pogroms — in which disproportionate role played the descendants of the 1648-49 perpetrators? Forced Russian education never actually happened. And, again, it would have been worse than 1648-49?!? And forced education became common in the developed countries at that time.
June 12, 2023 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #2199158anonymous JewParticipantMdd1, the pale of settlement? The pogroms launched after the death of Alexander were promoted and spurred on by the Russians but did take place largely in Ukraine and Poland because that’s where the Russians confined the Jews!
The ferocity and savagery was so severe that it prompted the great Jewish emigration to the U.S. The pogroms continued into the 20th centuryJune 13, 2023 1:15 am at 1:15 am #2199188mdd1ParticipantAnonymous…, those pogroms were incomparable to to the scale and savagery of the Tach-ve-Tat!! Note, by the way, they happened in Ukraine, but not so much in Belarus (White Russia).
The Pale? It was not fun, but it was nothing in comparison to the 1648-49!June 13, 2023 7:34 am at 7:34 am #2199194mdd1ParticipantAnd just to pre-empt: Belarus and Lithuania were parts of the Pale.
June 13, 2023 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #2199516Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantMdd1, several issues here:
1) I quoted numbers of victims from recent research. I have no independent opinion on that, but this seems to be more fact-based research than oral history from that time.2) not sure how history of Litvish/Polish ownership of Slav regions is relevant here. It has nothing to do with Russia, aka Moscovia. I don;t think we need to resolve battles between Kiev, Poland, etc. If we take a side, it should be Jewish Khazars 🙂
3) my main point was that this Ukrainian cruel rebellion was the beginning of Russian occupation of Polish (and thus Jewish) areas, leading to several centuries of difficult Jewish history, including pogroms, cantonists, etc, etc. Note that Ukrainians or whoever they were at the time, Kozaks, peasants wanted to be “partners” with the Czar and soon understood that they made a deal with the devil, but it was too late.
4) the essence of pogrom (russian word) is not just violence, but that it was organized and had government support. So, even if Ukrainian peasants attacked Jews (obviously, not Russian peasants as Jews were not allowed to live in Russia proper with exceptions), it was impossible to defend as the police will arrest the Jews who would try to fight.
5) Jews consistently took the Polish side during the latter rebellions against Russia. The only pro-Russian group seemed to be Chabad, with Alter Rebbe deciding that Napoleons come and go, but Russian Czar will still be there … and anyway safer from haskala .. He passed away running away from Napoleon
June 13, 2023 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #2199517Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantmdd > Belarus and Lithuania were parts of the Pale.
of course, all Polish areas occupied by Russia were the Pale, Russia proper did not let Jews in from very early in Moscow history. I don’t think this was the case in other slavic and eastern european lands: Jews settled in Poland, Belorussia, Kievan Rus, Crimea. Not sure, were there any other countries in Eastern Europe who did not allow Jews? (in Western: England for a time)
June 13, 2023 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #2199518Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantAnon, Jewish history under Russian empire predates Alexander. Russians were pressuring Jews into assimilation and submission to a centralized system early on. In Vilno, Misnagdim and Chasidim were appealing to Russ. gov. against each other, and this was of course used by Russians to divide and conquer. Similar to Pompey coming to make peace for Chashmonaim.
At some point, R. Salanter was offered a position as a head of Russian-led educational system. He hesitated, thinking that he would have a positive effect on it, but at the end his, and others, decision was to totally disassociate from the Russian-forced school and rabbinical system, so that nobody would confuse an appointed “official” rabbi and a real one.
There were also several visits by groups of gedolim to Petersburg, trying to argue for various leniencies in schooling.
June 14, 2023 12:19 am at 12:19 am #2199539mdd1ParticipantAlways…, you are very ignorant of the whole history of the region, and your posts are therefore truly annoying. Buy for yourself a serious history textbook on the topic and read it in the bathroom (to avoid bittul Torah).
June 14, 2023 1:03 am at 1:03 am #2199547Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantmdd1, thanks for your learnt input. Presumably from the bathroom?
June 14, 2024 11:17 am at 11:17 am #2290003Reb EliezerParticipantPlease bump.
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