A ???? Shailah

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  • #597018

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    You should be able to answer this even if you know nothing about this issue at all.

    I’ll post the answer sometime when I’m in the mood. (Or what I think the answer is, anyway.)

    There is a machlokes regarding ?? ????- blood in eggs.

    Rif and Rambam hold that if the blood is on the yolk, then the whole egg is assur. But if it is on the white it is muttar.

    Raah holds if it is found on the white, then the whole egg is assur. But if it is on the yolk it should be muttar.

    We are machmir like both shittos, thus, if it found anywhere, the whole egg is assur. (See Taz 66:2; Shach 66:8)

    Rema (66:4, see also Taz 66:5) then states that therefore, if you find a bloodspot anywhere on an egg, and it is subsequently mixed with other eggs, all the eggs are assur unless it is batul bshishim. Regardless of where the bloodspot was.

    But, if you never saw where the bloodspot was, and it is now mixed with even only 2 other eggs, then it is muttar, because we say the bloodspot might have been on the spot where it is muttar.

    The question is:

    Why does it matter that you never saw where the bloodspot was?

    We are machmir like both shittos, so no matter where it was it is assur. As we see we are machmir when you saw where it was, regardless of where it was. How is it better if you didn’t see?

    #969245

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If you know, then it’s definitely assur according to one of those shittos. If you don’t know, then both shittos would mattir it.

    RESTORED

    #969246

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Yes, I think that’s the answer.

    #969247

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Moderator, you can remove my post and let someone else have a chance.

    Yes, but I’ll leave up popa’s agreement

    #969248

    Pac-Man
    Member

    Should all correct answers be removed after 5 minutes, to give the next posters a shot?

    #969249

    BSD
    Member

    “We are machmir like both shittos,” both shittos agree that is muttar if you never saw where the blood spot was(and it mixed w 2 other eggs).

    I have a question for you:

    If you stick your hand in the chulent pot while it is yad soledes bo (you wanted to get that piece of flanken before s/o else gets to it and you didn’t realize that the chulent was still hot) Does your chulent become treif?

    #969250

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If you stick your hand in the chulent pot while it is yad soledes bo (you wanted to get that piece of flanken before s/o else gets to it and you didn’t realize that the chulent was still hot) Does your chulent become treif?

    The answer is “no”, but I don’t know why not.

    My chavrusa and I hocked about this question when we were learning this. Probably the answer is that you are alive, and that if a pig stuck its foot in it would also be kosher. But I have no source for that.

    #969251

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    What tells you that Nosen Taam of a person is Assur? Although, I think you’re right about the being alive. It’s not meat.

    #969252

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I recall a ??”?, I think, which discussed a baby which had fallen into a pot of beer.

    I can’t find it right now, but I asked my chavrusa where it is.

    #969253

    BSD
    Member

    “What tells you that Nosen Taam of a person is Assur?”

    Why not-it’s not nosen taam lifgam?

    “Although, I think you’re right about the being alive. It’s not meat.”

    A-who says it’s not meat.(you happen to be right but you failed to back it up with any explanation or mekor)

    B-Whether it’s classified as meat or not has no relevance to this shailah because either way it’s not kosher(no split hooves and in most cases, not a vegetable)

    C-Even if you disagree with B(I don’t see how)at the very least, it’s aiver min hachai

    “if a pig stuck its foot in it would also be kosher.” Are you sure about that?

    #969254

    BSD
    Member

    While you’re thinking about that one, here’s another Q:

    We may not put milchig and fleishig on the table at the same time unless you have a heker or it is far enough from each other that you cannot reach(similar to niddah). Why than do we not have those same restrictions in regard to fish and meat, especially in light of the fact that chamirah sakantah meisurah?

    #969255

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    B-Whether it’s classified as meat or not has no relevance to this shailah because either way it’s not kosher(no split hooves and in most cases, not a vegetable)

    Not a b’heimah.

    in light of the fact that chamirah sakantah meisurah?

    Maybe that’s precisely why there’s no issur.

    #969256

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    I never heard of any Gezeira for a Sakana. I guess the Chachamim understood that it’s something you’d care enough about on your own to be careful. What would they have done in our self neglecting generation?

    Where do you find that a person is Treif? Surely, you may not eat one, but not that it’s Treif. Think about it: Your tongue is in your mouth for over 24 hours. What do you do about that, wrap it in paper?

    We see that a live animal is not food from Hilchos Tumas Ochlin. There are probably more instances to point to which are not on my mind right now, but it is a very strong Svara.

    More to the root of the issue, Your hand doesn’t get cooked. Although you can argue that meat doesn’t either cook in a fraction of a second, Kach Shiurei Chachomin. Also, dead meat is inert, giving room for the concept of K’dei Klipa. Live muscle has circulation of blood and works together.

    Ever Min Hachai is dead meat by the time you are eating it.

    #969258

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    RE: status of ??? ???:

    Rema 79:1 states it is assur min hatorah.

    taz 79:3 states it is a machlokes and that Rosh holds it is only drabanan.

    shach 79:3 states that the issue is the flesh of a live person, but the flesh of a corpse is assur bhanaah min hatorah according to everyone.

    As far as whether it tastes good, See PM”G on taz, 103:7, that if a baby falls into a pot of mead, it is kosher because meat is pogem in honey, but if it falls into beer, it is assur.

    #969259

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Even if it’s min haTorah, it might be an asei (Ramba”m) in which case there might not be ta’am k’ikar. See Kehillos Yaakov Chullin 5 (newer edition) for a discussion on this topic; IIRC, he proves as HaleiVi asserts that live meat is not able to be maflit from the fact that we don’t asser a tavshil in which a person stuck his finger.

    #969260

    BSD
    Member

    “Not a b’heimah.”

    That’s a matter of opinion.

    “Maybe that’s precisely why there’s no issur.”

    That is precisely what the Darkei Tshuvah says.

    #969261

    BSD
    Member

    Regardless of whether or not it is assur, it is certainly not meat-meaning you do not have to wait 6 hours to eat milchig-same as by a non-kosher species which one is also permitted to cook with milk and is muttar bihana’ah.

    Hare’s another one:How can you have food that is treif, but if some more treif falls into it it becomes muttar?

    #969262

    hello99
    Member

    Chasam Sofer quotes a story with the Hafla’ah that he forbade a pot of hot milk that a live chicken jumped into because of ever min hachai, indicating his opinion that a live animal is polet. Most Poskim strongly disagree. The Chavos Da’as supposedly laughed when he heard this psak.

    #969263

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Did the chicken jump out, too? If it died there or even from it, that might mean it got cooked.

    #969264

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    BSD,

    I imagine that adding a drop of Gid Hanasha to a pot of meat that has a 60th of milk, would be Mattir the whole pot.

    #969265

    bezalel
    Participant

    I recall a ??”?, I think, which discussed a baby which had fallen into a pot of beer.

    And their concern was whether the beer is kosher?

    #969266

    BSD
    Member

    Haleivi,

    That is correct though you chose gid hanasheh because it is not nosen taam-you could have chosen even issur that is nosen taam for example if you had a pot with 59 kizaisim of food and a kizais of treif fell into it and then another kizais of a different treif food (ie that has a different taste then the first kizais of treif) fell in it is kosher because each treif has 60x more than it and is mivatel its taam. However you can’t add it in intentionally because ain mivatlin issur lichatchilah.

    #969267

    oomis
    Participant

    LOVE this discussion!!!!!

    #969268

    BSD
    Member

    Hearty appetite.

    #969269

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Actually, I chose Gid Hanashe over Neveila, which has the same Taam. But as you say, it could be anything with a different Taam. The “put in” that I wrote was a total mistake. As I was typing I had in mind to correct it.

    #969270

    BSD
    Member

    Haleivi-“Your tongue is in your mouth for over 24 hours.”

    Tongue in mouth=ok

    Foot in mouth=problem

    All seriousness aside, I was wondering if your choice of gid hanashah is actually a problem because I was klerring what is the reasoning behind batul bishishim-is it that the ta’am is diluted or is it that the apposing ta’am overpowers it? If it’s the former, than your gid hanasheh example holds muster, if it’s the latter then it would remain treif despite having shishim. This must be am haaratsus though because according to my reasoning if tarfus falls into water it cannot become batul, unless you say water has ta’am. In NJ it does. Anyway I haven’t leaned this in well over a decade since leaving kollell so please forgive me-I’m just having some fun.

    #969271

    BSD
    Member

    “Even if it’s min haTorah, it might be an asei (Ramba”m) in which case there might not be ta’am k’ikar. See Kehillos Yaakov Chullin 5 (newer edition) for a discussion on this topic; IIRC, he proves as HaleiVi asserts that live meat is not able to be maflit from the fact that we don’t asser a tavshil in which a person stuck his finger.”

    If there is no ta’am k’ikar than you cannot bring proof that live meat is not maflit from a case of a tavshil in which a person stuck his finger?

    #969272

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Correct, I think the K”Y is going on the tzad that it’s a lav, but I would have to go through it again. I was offering two separate reasons.

    #969273

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    We are ignoring the issue of Chanan.

    #969274

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Chanan Bisha?

    #969275

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    ????? ????? ?????.

    Therefore, you could not add more issur to the mix and be mevateil the other issur. Because all of it becomes all the issur.

    The shulchan aruch which discusses this idea in 98:9 does not hold of chanan by ??? ?????? (unlike the rema who does, and that is how ashkenazim pasken). The Rema there who agrees is only discussing a case where it all fell in together, or, a case of everything being liquid, and it is also ???? ?????. See taz 98:14; shach 98:34.

    #969276

    is the answer sfek sfeka?

    #969277

    BSD
    Member

    Popa-Thank you-I forgot about chanan. I should have modified the Q as follows: How can you have food that is milchig, but if some fleishig falls into it it becomes parev?

    RavHamachshir-? usually if your not sure the best answer is “it’s a machlokis”

    Here’s another one:

    How can you have a piece of meat fall into a kli rishon of milk, there is no shishim kinegdo, and it is kosher?

    #969278

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    How can you have food that is milchig, but if some fleishig falls into it it becomes parev?

    Excellent. I like.

    How can you have a piece of meat fall into a kli rishon of milk, there is no shishim kinegdo, and it is kosher?

    The milk is kosher, or the meat? Or both.

    I’m guessing both were cold, so we’ll wash off the meat, and eat it all.

    Unless the meat was cooked (?????) and had cracks or spices (whole thing assur).

    #969279

    BSD
    Member

    popa-“I’m guessing both were cold”

    just making sure you’re awake:)-ok I failed to mention that the pot is yad soledes bo and yet the milk is kosher.

    Daas-“I was offering two separate reasons.”

    There is a big nafka minah lihalacha between the two reasons in, for example, Popa’s case where a pig stuck its foot into a pot.

    #969280

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    There is a big nafka minah lihalacha between the two reasons in, for example, Popa’s case where a pig stuck its foot into a pot.

    Yes. But this is the mishmar shaila thread, not the halacha l’meisa thread.?

    #969281

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Ah, here it is. Thanks to someone who found it for me.

    #969282

    Sam2
    Participant

    HaLeiVi: Tongue in mouth wouldn’t be a problem anyway because it’s never fully submerged in the same saliva so there’s no Kavush Kim’vushal.

    #969283

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Very good point! Now, what about Dochka D’sakina if you bite your tongue?

    #969284

    Sam2
    Participant

    A tooth’s edge probably isn’t sharp enough. It probably depends on if you hold the tines of a fork are Duchka D’sakina also (I would love to hold that was but I don’t think anyone does).

    #969285

    Ender
    Participant

    When I learned Basar bechalav I am pretty sure i learned that fork times are duchka desakina. Because of that you need to make sure you either pull pickles out of the jar by hand or use a parve fork.

    #969286

    if ur intereste in signing up for a mishmar shailah txt lemme know

    #969287

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Welcome back chayav. Hope you’re enjoying bein hazmanim.

    I hate mishmar shailos. This one is the only one I like.

    Because all the other ones I’ve heard that purport to be mishmar shailos are either obvious, or really do require some sevara and are not pure cheshbon.

    #969288

    Sam2
    Participant

    What’s a “mishmar shaila”? I just thought that you meant this was a question you thought of at Mishmar one night.

    #969289

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    It sounds like it’s a Shayla that is supposed to keep you up all night.

    #969290

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    A “mishmar shaila” is a brain teaser, so called because it’s supposed to hold the attention and interest of bochurim late at night at a voluntary seder.

    I believe R’ Scheinberg zt”l wrote a sefer with such shailos, called “Mishmeres Chaim”.

    #969291

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I have heard the term “mishmar shaila” used to refer to a question in Torah that can be answered using pure cheshbon, and doesn’t require changing anything in sevara.

    Basically, a pure mathematical answer.

    #969292

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #969293

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Thanks.

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