A basic Torah Hashkafa unknown to some.

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  • #1873842
    Haimy
    Participant

    We are living in a society that flaunts lifestyles that the Torah not only forbids, but Hashem calls them out as an abomination.
    Hashem “Hates” certain behaviors & he let us know to be intolerant of them. Yes, Judaism is intolerant of certain behaviors & the people who openly flaunt them.
    For most Heimisher Yidden, this isn’t so relevant because we don’t usually mingle with these types of people. But there are plenty of frum Yidden that work side by side with Mishkivei zochor & other deviants. How should we as Frum Yidden feel in our hearts about them? Should we be maintaining a level of social distancing from people that Hashem says he hates because of their behaviors? Or is it non of our business?
    This is how one commenter on YWN put it:
    “Hate to break it to you, I am probably as conservative as they come and I have no issue with working along side of who/ what ever my co workers are. If they are competent and do the job well who cares what they are.”
    ” I actually worked with several, gays, trans, etc. Sometime Claire wore a dress and most of the time she/he wore jeans and frankly I could not care less, they were competent employees and had good annual reviews. What they do on the own time is none of my beeswax.”
    “NO ISSUE WORKING SIDE BY SIDE WITH SOMEONE HASHEM DESPISES!
    ARE YOU A YID? WOULD YOU HAVE NO PROBLEM WORKING WITH SOMEONE WHO CONSISTANTLY FLUSHES THE TOILET ON YOUR PARENT’S HEAD? How can you have no problem with this when the borei olom told you that he absolutlely abhors this person’s behavior?
    You can’t say anything to this person, but in your heart, you should be SEETHING at THEM! Your heart is deadn’d by the society around us which accepts this so you feel nothing. You almost feel ashamed of yourself for being intolerant on an intellectual level.
    A basic regesh of a Yid should be that if Hashem is intolerant of something, SO ARE YOU! Even if the behavior is done in private, (which cross dressing isin’t) If you know about it, THEN IT’s NOT PRIVATE! IT’S PUBLIC! The person is letting everyone know about it!
    I’m I saying a chiddush?

    #1874279
    interjection
    Participant

    Hashem also despises someone who speaks lashon hara.
    Do you feel this strongly towards someone who speaks lashon hara?

    #1874285
    lebidik yankel
    Participant

    Calm down. Lots of things are horrible. People deny Hashem altogether, which, I wager, is worse than mishkav zchor. Do you then also foam at the mouth when you see an atheist? And a mechallel Shabbos? Cheating in business is called an abomination in the Torah. Look around you in shul…

    I put it to you that its not the Torah values that animate you at all, but homophobia. And pretending to be pious when being nothing more than a bigot is a Torah value unknown to me, I hope it remains so.

    edited

    #1874295
    Someone in Monsey
    Participant

    Haimy, what you’re saying is chiddush in the sense that Mesillas Yesharim is chiddush – it’s something everyone knows, but pays no attention to. You’ve said it exactly as it is, and exactly as it needs to be said. Yasher koach.

    #1874298
    Quayboardwarrior
    Participant

    So what you are saying is Hashem created a person, gave them the choice of doing something, did not tell them making said choice would be wrong, and now despises them for making that choice?

    Sorry mate but that hardly seems a fair and just God.

    He probably just despises it being done by people whom have been told not to do these things. Much like a tinok shenishba.

    #1874322
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Haimy

    “I’m I saying a chiddush?”

    No but you are selectively applying it. The Torah also calls Those who cheat An abomination Devarim 25:13 כִּ֧י תוֹעֲבַ֛ת יְהוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֶ֖יךָ כָּל־עֹ֣שֵׂה אֵ֑לֶּה כֹּ֖ל עֹ֥שֵׂה עָֽוֶל.

    I dont mean you personally, but in my experience our community has not been intolerant of financial frauds, in fact IVe often found the opposite.
    SO What upsets us is not really what “Hashem says he hates” Its what YOU (again not you personally )hate, and your just cloaking it in righteousness

    Misheli 6:7 lists seven aveiros Hashem finds an abomination

    #1874325
    Redleg
    Participant

    Notwithstanding the issue under discussion, LY’s use of the term “homophobia” is one of my pet peeves. This current coinage is silly. A phobia is an irrational fear or loathing. Homo simply refers to human beings (genus Homo), so “homophobia” actually means an irrational fear or loathing of human beings.

    #1874331
    Joseph
    Participant

    Haimy:

    Your OP is great, on the bottom and 100% correct.

    Yasher Koach

    #1874354
    Someone in Monsey
    Participant

    In addition, “homophobia”, as it’s used in contemporary culture, is both useless and quite in contradiction to the Torah. The Torah is clear – male toeiva actions warrant the death penalty. Shomer Torah u’mitzvos Yidden who preach tolerance and condemn homophobia are perhaps wise in terms of relations with the goyim, but, if they allow their wisdom to extend too far, wind up violating the Torah. Such was Shlomo HaMelech’s mistake.

    #1874356
    Goldilocks
    Participant

    Haimy,
    I am jealous.
    I wish I was on your level in avodas Hashem!

    #1874363
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I am not worthy enough to judge anyone else as to whether or not they are virtuous or not, so I make it a point not to hate anyone, with the exception of the one specific person who I know is wicked enough that I can hate that person.

    If you’re telling me that I’m a bad person for not hating whoever it is you think I should hate… well, I guess that just makes me a worse person than I thought I was.

    The Wolf

    #1874364
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    While i don’t agree with Haimy’s style or approach (and am choshed that it was written like that for that reason), i find the responses embarrassing.

    I completely agree with the responses, but you have sadly strengthened his point. Had someone written an overdramatic post on lashon hora or fraud you never would have asked if he feels the same about mishkav zachor. The appropriate response would probably be to add it to the offenses, not to use it as a counter argument.

    I spent too many years working in a very very liberal environment where straight conservatives were the minority. I respect my coworkers but was apalled by their lifestyles. But it wears off. And i left because of the effect it was having on my spiritual level.
    Do i think Haimy’s approach is effective? No. And i doubt he does either. But the responses, though accurate in content, were inadequate in context.

    #1874375
    Joseph
    Participant

    Wolf: If you witnessed a co-worker stealing company property or witnessed a neighbor beating other people’s children, would you then publicly declare yourself “unworthy enough to judge anyone else as to whether or not they are virtuous or not, so I make it a point not to hate anyone”?

    #1874381
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Joseph, you seem to be confusing hating a behavior and hating a person.

    #1874388
    WolfishMusings
    Participant


    Wolf: If you witnessed a co-worker stealing company property or witnessed a neighbor beating other people’s children, would you then publicly declare yourself “unworthy enough to judge anyone else as to whether or not they are virtuous or not, so I make it a point not to hate anyone”?

    I have never witnessed any of my coworkers performing prohibited sexual acts, so your analogy is not valid.

    I judge only one person. I am only qualified to judge one person. And so I only hate one person.

    Until I am appointed an official judge by someone, that’s the way it remains.

    If you think my lack of judgement of others makes me a bad person, then you are free to hate me too.

    The Wolf

    #1874390
    Joseph
    Participant

    Syag: The Torah tells us to hate a willful sinner who unabashedly sins in public and isn’t embarrassed by his sins but is rather proud and loud about his sins.

    #1874396
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I remember being taught to take one mitzvah and “make it my own”. Not to exagerate it’s primary importance over any others, but to excel in it. I personally wouldn’t have chosen hating to be that mitzvah.
    Good luck with that

    #1874395
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Redleg

    ” LY’s use of the term “homophobia” is one of my pet peeves.”

    Meh Is “Anti-semitism ” one of your pet peeves too, as it does not include being “anti” all semites (eg Arabs) but is limited to Jews?

    #1874399
    Joseph
    Participant

    “I have never witnessed any of my coworkers performing prohibited sexual acts, so your analogy is not valid.”

    Wolf: You deem theft to be worse than sexual sins, so you’re saying you don’t view the analogy as valid as you’ll speak out against theft but you’ll refuse to speak out against sexual sins?

    #1874403
    Joseph
    Participant

    Syag: Hating an open, blatant, public, willful, proud sinner isn’t an optional mitzvah. It is an obligatory mitzvah on all.

    #1874405
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    but to excel in it. I personally wouldn’t have chosen hating to be that mitzvah”

    .

    #1874409
    Joseph
    Participant

    You’re avoiding the point.

    #1874412
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    No. Im giving you musser
    Say thank you and walk away.

    #1874416
    Joseph
    Participant

    Thank you. That I’ll say for the sincere mussar, since it is sincere though misplaced.

    But walking away isn’t an option.

    #1874420
    Chaim Shulem
    Participant

    If I had to live my life hating every person who does something against the torah (especially, in the context that Haimy is putting it, this is someone who has no clue what the torah is or says in the first place), I’d be a pretty miserable person to be around.

    #1874432
    The little I know
    Participant

    I am struggling to understand the definition of despise – which the OP suggests is the chiyuv of every Yid to feel towards someone with SSA. Does this mean to viciously attack them, as in violence, or to experience nausea in their presence? Does it mean to not converse with them, ignore them, not agree to work in their proximity, to deny doing business with them, rejecting them at a checkout counter? In the case of avoda zarah, the posuk tells us to shatter them and break their matzeivos (on entry to Eretz Yisroel which was previously inhabited by idolatrous people). If there is such a pronouncement in Torah for SSA’s, mechalelei Shabbos, or other baalei aveiroh, please cite a reference.

    I suggest that one can have the casual connections and interactions with them as with any other stranger, without encouraging, endorsing, or supporting their “to’eivoh”.

    So what is basic Torah hashkafah? It is certainly not based on my personal feelings. It based on what the Torah guides us to do.

    #1874436
    interjection
    Participant

    Syag lachochma,

    I didnt mean that doing any sin is ever okay. I’m just questioning if the disgust towards it is leshem shamayim or rather preference. Besides, if the person isn’t asking me for a heter, then why is it my business?

    #1874452
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf: You deem theft to be worse than sexual sins,

    I never said that, and if I gave that impression, I apologize.

    so you’re saying you don’t view the analogy as valid as you’ll speak out against theft but you’ll refuse to speak out against sexual sins?

    The point is that I haven’t seen anyone do anything Biblically prohibited regarding homosexual sex. So, I can’t judge them as “wicked” on that basis. Your analogy was about something I directly observed.

    Again, I judge only myself. Period. And so, I only judge one person as wicked. Period. If my lack of judging of others makes me wicked in your eyes as well, so be it. I’m not asking you to accept my actions as correct or right. If my lack of judging someone is sinful, then by all means, call me sinful.

    The Wolf

    #1874453
    Ayiddishekup
    Participant

    TLIK- it depends, if he’s someone who’s proud of it and tries to normalize it to society and force it on society then I would have to agree with Joseph to hate him for it but if it’s someone who has the struggle and is trying not then even if he messes up you shouldn’t hate him at most feel sorry and try to be supportive in any way you can.

    #1874495
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    The comments above from LittleIKnow provide a common sense approach for a ben torah that either chooses or is economically compelled to leave the Heimeshe “bubble” and participate in the broader economic and social aspects of a secular world that has increasingly “normalized” LGBT relationships and lifestyles. One can interact with them in a respectful manner as with any other work colleague or stranger, without “encouraging, endorsing, or supporting their “to’eivoh”.

    #1874519
    Goldilocks
    Participant

    The questions raised by TheLittleIKnow are good ones that really should be addressed by a halachic authority; however, I will hazard a few guesses.
    Does despising someone mean…
    …attacking them violently?
    Probably not.
    …feeling nausea in their presence?
    Probably. If someone were to smack your parents in the face, would you not feel nausea in their presence?
    …ignoring them, not conversing with them, refusing to work in their proximity?
    Conversing with them should be kept to a minimum.

    Yiddishekup: You make a very valid point; thank you for bringing that up. If someone struggles in a certain area, wants to do the right thing and tries hard, but sometimes messes up, such a person should not be called a rasha. There’s no mitzva to hate such a person.
    However, the vast majority of people being discusses here do not fall into that category.

    #1874547
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    This basic Torah Hashkafa is unknown to some because it does not exist, and is not referenced anywhere. Though, there is a major emphasis throughout all Torah sources on the greatness of the lone individual who dedicates himself to what s/he was created to be. Does anyone really think, that some homosexual, illiterate, self-absorbed punk is the next Avraham Avinu? Hashem put me in a world with people that are self serving deviants. My role is to not emulate them. Despising them, would put me more in their camp than with the Avos and Dovid Hamelech. If you spend your time, thinking about them you become them. Just ignore it. We have better things to do.

    #1874549
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Even better question. If a mishkav zochornik would come to you to help him get a pair of tefillin, what would you do?

    #1874550
    som1
    Participant

    interjection-“Hashem also despises someone who speaks lashon hara.
    Do you feel this strongly towards someone who speaks lashon hara?”
    its not lashon harah since the commentor is completely anonymous! its not like his user name is his name

    #1874575
    interjection
    Participant

    Som1,

    I just used that example because it’s an extremely common sin that unfortunately we are all guilty of and many of us barely care enough to work on it, but that Hashem despises it.
    I didnt mean to suggest anything about the OP.

    #1874645
    Doing my best
    Participant

    I believe that 99% of these people are in the category of tinok shenishba.
    I say 99% and not 100% because I assume someone here will say they know someone that _______.

    #1874655
    Whatsaktome
    Participant

    You should view him with pity, not hate, aside from the fact that he is a tinok sheishba, even complete sinners that don’t go into the character of tinok shenishba you are not supposed to hate rather have pity on them (aside for select cases as is explained in tanya i forget the exact place now), and additionally this specific problem of mishlav zochor is basically sort of like an illness, a urge for something forbidden that is unnatural

    #1874656
    Whatsaktome
    Participant

    And someone who is sick should not be treated with hate, also the proper way (and the most effective) is to bring him closer with love

    #1874657
    Haimy
    Participant

    What did Bilaam say to the Midianites? אמר להם אלהיהם של אלו שונא זימה, Sanhedrin. 106a. Hashem hates Zenus. Mishkav Zochor is one of the 7 Mitzvos given to Noach, each of those Mitzvos come with the death penalty when they are disobeyed. I think it is pretty well known that the Bible forbids this behavior. Even if you can claim that they are all innocent because they don’t know any better, it should definitely bother you that mankind is behaving in a way that’s contrary to Hashem’s will. LOshon Horah & cheating are also a serious chataim but there’s no capital punishment attached. If an srial cheater or baal loshon horah works in close proximity to you then you would feel uncomfortable by that, why not for a noef? Even if legally we need to tolerate sinners we should still feel bothered by their choices. People’s behaviors don’t just happen, they are intentional decisions that a person makes. You cannot separate a murderer from the murder he committed or a mezaneh from the znus he intentionally commits. It’s only after doing teshuvah that we can separate people from their behaviors because they now regret tho choices they made.

    #1874735
    Avi K
    Participant

    Haimy, what about working side by side with people who say rechilut and lashon hara, cheat on their taxes, lie to day school scholarship boards, etc.? It seems to me that you have adopted the leftist cancel culture. Be careful. Someone might cancel you.

    #1874803
    Goldilocks
    Participant

    Avi, that would bother me very much. I would certainly make every effort to look for a new job, for fear of being influenced by my companions.
    If finding a new job were impossible, I hope I would feel real disgust at the though of spending time with people who think it’s cool to lie, cheat and gossip.
    As to your concern that someone may “cancel” me? Well, for one, I don’t think it’s cool to do avairos. Secondly, if someone would avoid my company out of a genuine concern that my middos are not up to their standard, well, good for them!

    #1874822
    Haimy
    Participant

    Avi K,
    “Haimy, what about working side by side with people who say rechilut and lashon hara, cheat on their taxes, lie to day school scholarship boards, etc”
    I would Absolutely feel uncomfortable associating with an unrepentant destructive person! Especially if they proudly announced their belief in the validity of those behaviors.
    That is exactly my point! If Hashem hates certain behaviors then we should develop a revulsion to them even if the society around us embraces them. Don’t mistreat them, don’t make a chilul Hashem, don’t cause sinas Yisroel. Do feel sick in your stomach when a man shows up in a dress! Do feel sick in your stomach when you see people proudly celebrating their breaking Hashem’s cardinal rules for mankind.
    Am I a big Baal Madreiga? Not at all! but I feel some basic respect to the borei olom & would never say that it makes no difference to me how people act as long as they perform well on the job.
    Homophobia? I believe that is a natural instinct Hashem put into mankind to make it easier for us to abide by Hashem’s laws. I also have smoke phobia, I feel uncomfortable when I smell plastic or wood burning. My fight or flight system warns me of danger. 2 zechorim holding hands also awakens withing me similiar feelings. These feelngs are a gift from Hashem that I cherish. This entire discussion is only about people that openly flaunt Hashem’s laws. I’m not refering to the painful struggle certain people face privately in this area. I empathize with them & do not look down at them. They are the giborim who were given a very difficult nisayon to overcome in this world.

    #1874991
    Avi K
    Participant

    Haimy, you wrote it yourself. We should feel revulsion at the sin but not the person. This was Beruria’s answer to Rabbi Meir – and it came out like her (Berachot 10a). I have a feeling that you will have to work alone with you. People who do aveirot never say that they are evil. They always have excuses. People who cheat the government say that other ethnic groups do it. People who cheat on exams and have others do term papers for them say that they need a good grade. People who talk during davening say that shul is the only place where they meet their friends. The list goes on and on.

    #1875071
    Joseph
    Participant

    That’s false. The people who talk during davening do not claim interrupting davening is okay to do. The people who steal from the government do not claim stealing is okay to do. The people who cheat on exams do not claim cheating is okay to do.

    They all know and will acknowledge if asked that cheating, stealing and interrupting is wrong.

    The toeivaniks not only sin in private, they proudly parade about their sin. They create symbols like rainbows to advertise their sinning and promote it.

    And if asked if that activity is wrongful and shouldn’t be done, virtually every one of them will tell you there’s nothing wrong with doing it.

    #1875072
    Joseph
    Participant

    That’s false. The people who talk during davening do not claim interrupting davening is okay to do. The people who steal from the government do not claim stealing is okay to do. The people who cheat on exams do not claim cheating is okay to do.

    They all know and will acknowledge if asked that cheating, stealing and interrupting is wrong.

    The toeivaniks not only sin in private, they proudly parade about their sin. They create symbols like rainbows to advertise their sinning and promote it.

    And if asked if that activity is wrongful and shouldn’t be done, virtually every one of them will tell you there’s nothing wrong with doing it.

    #1875096
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Joseph- not true. There are specific communities where it they will give you justification for cheating government, and there are many, many of those who don’t put up rainbows or justify anything. While you are right that the movement is made up of thise who do claim to be proud, it is one of your games to pretend that it applies to all. Its as stupid as saying that if you support a policemen you must hate blacks because the protesters said so.

    #1875105
    Joseph
    Participant

    Syag, do you know of any group of toeivaniks who are active in the sin that if asked will readily concede that their private activity is wrong and they shouldn’t be doing it?

    I will assert that if such people exist, I’m not sure if one hand would be enough to count them or if you’d need fingers from your second hand to complete the count of them.

    #1875120
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Yes joseph. And i can attest not onky that it’s a large group, but that your information is based solely on what you’ve decided to attribute to them.

    #1875197
    Joseph
    Participant

    Syag, it’s a metzius that adultery is more prevalent than homosexuality. The only real difference between the two in contemporary times is that the former is widely acknowledged by virtually all as wrong whereas the latter was also so acknowledged until relatively very recently in history when through great political and media effort society was brainwashed into changing its views towards accepting its normalization. Something that has yet to occur with the former. (Give it some more time.)

    Given that the former is far more prevalent, perhaps you can explain to us how that it is that you’re somehow able to “attest” that the latter is a “large group” when I think you’ll admit (correct me please if otherwise) that you don’t know of a “large group” of the former, despite that sin being far more prevalent than the latter.

    You’re being unaware of any large group of adulterers isn’t because they don’t exist. It is because they don’t make themselves known to you. Which is far better than it they had made their sinful nature known to others. Yet the existence of the “regretful” homosexuals, you attest, are made known to you in a quantity consisting of being (even just from what you know and can attest to) a “large group”.

    I acknowledge that you indicate that this “large group” of homosexuals that you attest to do admit that their sinful activities may not and should not be engaged in by themselves, despite their continually doing so, to their regret. But I do severely question how it came to be that they made their sin known to outsiders (such as yourself), whereas other sinners (such as adulterers, which as a much larger group would be better known had they made themselves known) tend to not do so; and appropriately not.

    #1875280
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    SL
    You may & hopefully are right, however you are not addressing a central point.

    The silent ones who acknowledge and struggle with a nisoyon that is unique to them are not the ones in charge of a Political party.

    They are not the ones that are influencing the culture we raise our families in.

    They are not the ones that are influencing the curriculum in our schools.

    The ones that are doing the above are those that wish to change the moral landscape.

    They are the ones who wish to force us to acknowledge as equal and just things that are anti-Torah.

    And saying that there are those that are unlike them is a funny way of justifying giving power to them.

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