A Halachic problem you likely never thought of

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  • #604859
    WIY
    Member

    I realized that sometimes I sing or hum songs in the bathroom, however when I hum these songs the words tend to flash through my mind and many songs are pesukim or mamarei chazal which are assur to be said or thought about in the bathroom. I asked a Shaila and was told it is mamish assur to hum in the bathroom if the words will be going through my thoughts.

    Just want to be modia the olam.

    #913832
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    You’re wrong. I have thought of it. And I doubt I’m the only one.

    The Wolf

    #913833
    shein
    Member

    Yasher Koach.

    #913834
    WIY
    Member

    Wolf

    Stop growling ๐Ÿ™‚ I said “likely.” I see I was mechaven to you.

    Shein

    You are welcome.

    #913835
    2qwerty
    Participant

    Daf yomi discussed it about 2 weeks ago so the problem is only while using bathroom but its fine in the shower.

    #913836
    Josh31
    Participant

    I had come up with 6 reasons why those in the Charedei camp need to study secular studies. (Kosher Money, survival skills, being a good citizen, presenting a proper image to the outside world similar to being properly dressed, needed knowledge to understand areas of Torah such as Elu Teraifos, and to appreciate the world G-d created)

    WIY, thanks to your insight I now have seventh reason – to avoid Torah thoughts in the bathroom.

    #913837
    Sam2
    Participant

    If I recall correctly, R’ Moshe has a T’shuvah about something very similar to this. He says that if you play a CD with songs with P’sukim that can be overheard by someone in the bathroom it’s a problem.

    #913838
    Avi K
    Participant

    Rav Scheinberg zatzal used to play loud music to prevent himself from think about Tora when he showered.

    #913839
    SaysMe
    Member

    i’ll claim #2 on having thought of it before ๐Ÿ™‚

    #913840
    yehudayona
    Participant

    R’ Moshe was niftar in 1986. The CD first appeared in the U.S. in 1983. In the beginning, there were very few plants that could create CDs, so they didn’t replace other media for several years. I suspect R’ Moshe didn’t write about CDs; perhaps he wrote about cassettes or phonograph records.

    #913841
    haifagirl
    Participant

    When I’m in the bathroom at shul I can still hear the davening. Is that a problem?

    #913842

    Now its assur to sing in the shower?

    I plan on taking one tonight to please tell me what to do?

    ?ns ?o suo?????do ?o p??? pu? ‘??p???? ‘??puno? ???

    (319bu?ddo?s) 319[$]

    [$]613 (Shopping613)

    The Founder, Awarder, and Head of Operations of SUC

    #913843
    takahmamash
    Participant

    Tatte, what’s a cassette? What’s a phonograph record?

    #913844
    WIY
    Member

    Haifagirl

    Try not to listen theres nothing else you can do. Maybe flush the toilet to create extra noise so you dont hear it?

    Shopping613

    The problem is saying the words in the bathroom/shower or thinking them. If you can sing/hum a tune without actually thinking the words you are fine.

    #913845

    Ussually its in Hebrew so I have no idea what I’m really saying….but is it assur to say Hashem in the shower/bathroom?

    ?ns ?o suo?????do ?o p??? pu? ‘??p???? ‘??puno? ???

    (319bu?ddo?s) 319[$]

    [$]613 (Shopping613)

    The Founder, Awarder, and Head of Operations of SUC

    #913846
    WIY
    Member

    Shoppinggirl

    Knowing the meaning doesnt make it a problem its the fact that the words are Torah so you cant think them in a bathroom whether you know what they mean or not.

    I dont know if it is technically assur to say Hashem in the bathroom but its certainly very inappropriate even if its not black on white assur.

    Btw its good to know the meaning of the words in songs so that the song will have more depth and significance for you. Otherwise you may as well be listening to Chinese music.

    #913847

    WIY: I enjoy Jewish music..the style of it in classic songs like vzakeini legadel and newer songs that are more upbeat like YBC OR MBC….but for me its the music the touched me and my soul not the words….please WIY speak for youself!

    ?ns ?o suo?????do ?o p??? pu? ‘??p???? ‘??puno? ???

    (319bu?ddo?s) 319[$]

    [$]613 (Shopping613)

    The Founder, Awarder, and Head of Operations of SUC

    #913848
    WIY
    Member

    shoppinggirl

    All I am saying is that a song like vzakeini was written TO THOSE WORDS due to their significance and depth. The song is so popular due to the words that work so well together with the tune to express the meaning of the words.

    #913849
    midwesterner
    Participant

    I must be getting old if V’zakeini Legadel is already a classic!!

    #913850
    jbaldy22
    Member

    Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen paskened that even playing music on a cd player in the bathroom is not a problem. I don’t remember if he gave a reason reason.

    #913851
    Sam2
    Participant

    Yehudayona: Of course. I meant a tape. Actually, I think he uses the word “tape” (Tes Yud Yud Pei). I just said CD because that’s what I’m so used to saying. Just like I call all tissues “Kleenex”. Yes. He said a tape.

    #913852
    lebidik yankel
    Participant

    hum “vzakeni” – its not Torah! (there are many others like it, that are either a prayer or a wise saying, but not Torah)

    #913853
    Sam2
    Participant

    LY: You can’t Daven in a bathroom either. (However, I could hear that there’s no Shomea K’oneh in a bathroom and therefore listening to a song that’s a T’fillah doesn’t count as making a T’fillah. However, that would then cause you trouble with the Issur of listening to music.)

    #913854
    mik5
    Participant

    I think about Torah in the bathroom all the time. i know it’s wrong, but i can’t stop myself from doing it.

    #913856
    anon1m0us
    Participant

    To avoid this problem, one should be machmir not to learn Torah so he would never have the opportunity to say Torah in the bathroom. One should also go the extra mile of not listening to Jewish Music because it will be about an Averia. One should preferably listen to goyish music all the time and sing it aloud in the bathroom to bring it besoyen.

    #913857
    uneeq
    Member

    Is it muttar to read this thread in the bathroom?

    #913858
    Bustercrown
    Participant

    @wiy: actually ur wrong that if she doesn’t know the meaning of the words, it’s just like Chinese. Music goes into the Neshama , therefore whether she understands or not, it will have a positive effect on her.

    #913859
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I find this to be a problem when I go to a simcha.

    Often, the music in the main hall is loud enough to be heard in the bathroom (especially in the smaller simcha halls) and, often, that music consists of pesukim or Ma’amarei Chazal.

    The Wolf

    #913860
    oomis
    Participant

    I have remarked on this, too. So I try to avoid even thinking of Jewish music then.

    #913861
    Sam2
    Participant

    mik5: The Gemara in Zevachim explicitly states that if it’s learning B’ones (that you’re thinking about Torah even while trying to avoid it) then it’s okay.

    Wolf: That really is a problem. Ba’alei Simcha should be more careful about it or have them play classical music over the speakers in the bathroom to avoid this problem. I once gave this Eitzah to a couple getting married and B”H they listened to me. And people were impressed by the wedding that they had classical music in the bathroom, not realizing (well, maybe some realized) that it was there for Halachic reasons.

    #913862
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Ba’alei Simcha should be more careful about it or have them play classical music over the speakers in the bathroom to avoid this problem.

    There are no speakers in the bathroom. The music in the main hall is just loud. Even installing speakers is not a solution… you’d have to play the non-Jewish music fairly loudly to drown out the Jewish music.

    The Wolf

    #913864
    Naftush
    Member

    It may be helpful to view the issur as pertaining to “listening” as opposed to “hearing.” Hearing can’t be prevented but listening can, by mental distraction. So, twenty years ago I parked a 2200-page encyclopedia of baseball statistics in that room, and since then, even away from home, I associate entering this place with studying the doings of Mickey and Ty and all the rest. It’s also useful in kol isha situations; it eliminates the need to go to prison, spit in people’s faces, yehareg, etc.

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