Home › Forums › Decaffeinated Coffee › A lot of DL Bashing Charedim Lately
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November 17, 2024 10:23 am at 10:23 am #2332949lakewhutParticipant
We’re the gedolim of all the previous doros DL or more like Charedim?
November 17, 2024 1:10 pm at 1:10 pm #2333341gottytruthParticipantThe ones who if you needed a bracha for something and they would be on your list to get a bracha from were all chareidy.
November 17, 2024 1:10 pm at 1:10 pm #2333353Honest spiritParticipantThe Emes is they were consistant with Torah and halacha always. Nowadays there is a split between Torah and Halacha that Chareidi Gedolim are not really paskening based on critical halachik analysis בעיון הסוגיה והפוסקים nowadays it’s more based on what the frum way of doing it or they can claim דעת תורה but a proper תשובה הלכתית is not usually written on matters of great importance.
November 18, 2024 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #2333423ujmParticipantBecause they are Israeli nationalists first and Torah Jews second. When in conflict they will choose nationalism over Torah.
It isn’t, really, anything new. The MO have been bashing Chareidim for many decades already. It stems from their inadequacies when they see true Torah Jews/Eheliche Yidden following Judaism/Yiddishkeit while they place their modernity first before their Orthodoxy (i.e. Judaism).
November 18, 2024 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #2333424Honest spiritParticipant“The ones who if you needed a bracha for something and they would be on your list to get a bracha from were all chareidy.”
I think this is incorrect for many people Rav Ovadia Yosef zatzal was big source for brochas and was not of typical chareidi world view. In addition Rav Dov kook of teveriah many go to him for brochos he is more liberal toward the idf. Also Hagaon Rav Hershel Shachter many go to him for brochos as well. Historically Rav isser zalman meltzer famously said that Rav Avrohom Yitzchok Kook davens on a typical mincha more than most people daven on yom kipur. The Netziv was leader of volozin and was a member of chovevei tzion the predecessor of mizrahi/dati leumi.
November 18, 2024 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #2333464gottytruthParticipantTo honest spirit, rabbi moshe shternbuch is a masterpeice in halacha and he is completely charaidy.
November 18, 2024 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #2333487HaKatanParticipantAll the gedolim who spoke and/or wrote about DL, stated that DL is idolatry and heresy. That’s just the facts.
Rav Elchonon wrote in Kovetz Maamarim that Zionism is idolatry, and “Religious Zionism” is religion and idolatry biShituf.
The Brisker Rav wrote, and the Gerrer Rebbe and others signed on, that the DL education is a “sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”.November 18, 2024 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #2333502Chaim87ParticipantMany gedolim of hundred years ago were definitely more open toward DL ideals if not at least tolerant. It’s well known that during the 1924 kenisah gedolah someone got up and spoke again R Kook zl. The chafetz Chaim
was present and walked out on the speaker refusing to return to the convention for the rest of the days. R Kook was also close to R isser zalman, R tzvi pesach frank and of course the Nazir. His talmidim were R elishayv and R shloma zalman.
We also had many rizhna rebas who were mizrachi and even fehred tish yom hatzmut.
Imeri emes also held of R kook . Many Gera chasdim used to fight in the army.
Punvitcha Rav raised the fiag on Yom hatzmut and said hallel
Generally , gedolim were more tolerant or a bit Zionistic themselves. Yes there was the minchas eluzer and the Satmar Rebs and briska Rav were very holy and anti DL. But they weren’t the mainstream of klal YisroelNovember 18, 2024 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #2333507SQUARE_ROOTParticipantIn this web site, in this Coffee Room, there are people
who insult the Dati Leumi at every possible opportunity.I will not mention their names.
November 18, 2024 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #2333592truth2powerParticipantNot particularly surprising.
Imagine if you had to leave your wife, kids, job, kollel or yeshiva for over a year, putting your life at risk or even losing it…and your neighbor (who you are protecting), doesn’t need to because of the color of his shirt and the material of his kippah.
It makes no sense and is causing a huge amount of anger.November 18, 2024 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #2333720akupermaParticipantThe further back you go, the more gedolim appear to us as Charedim. The same holds true for most Baal ha-Battim. To a certain extent 21st century Hareidim often act like reinactors (i.e. they are really much modern than they seem, but act old fashioned as an ideological statement – note use of modern medicine, modern engineered fabrics, modern transportation, modern printing). Contrast this with some goyim who for example, refuse modern drugs, only wear natural fabrics (made from plants or animals rather than from petroleum, don’t use automobiles, insist on using scrolls, etc.).
No one was “modern” before “modern” times, almost by definition (e.g. Rashi never had a smartphone, Moshe Rabeinu never browsed the internet, the Maccabees never used rifles, no one before the mid-20th century used antibiotics or frozen foods, etc.). To a 21st century person, all the Gedolim prior to modern times appear to be Hareidi.
November 20, 2024 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #2333885Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantakuperma > No one was “modern” before “modern” times, almost by definition
This is a superficial view. I think many were modern and many were not. Rabban Gamliel owned some astronomical instruments and had 1000 students trained in modern studies while other 1000 in Torah studies. Rambam was knowledgeable in philosophy and astronomy of his time (maybe coincidental with a brief stay in Fes where the Fes medrasa is considerd by some a first modern university). Others did not like that and banned Rambam. In our days, there are “chareidi” Rabbis who may not have great science education but are happy to discuss implications of modern science and social sciences, ask probing questions, and consider what it means for halakha and Jewish life. As modern science is “closed”, i.e. expert in one area is not an expert in another, such Rabbis are not different from physicists who do not know computer science.
November 20, 2024 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #2333886Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantPS As we are told to go to shoftim of our times and not to previous times, similarly, “modern” is relative to the science of the time, not of future times.
November 20, 2024 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #2334032DaMosheParticipantThere were similarities to both DL and chareidim, but I think the gedolim of the past were closer to DL.
Many Rabbonim had jobs to support themselves, and didn’t just learn the whole day.
R’ Akiva Eiger wanted to arrange to bring a korbon Pesach, and actually asked the Chasam Sofer to speak to the ruler of Yerushalayim and request permission. That’s definitely a position that is closer to DL than to chareidi. It also shows that he held that one could go on the Temple Mount.
The Rabbonim then held by the halachah, and didn’t implement chumros on everything.November 20, 2024 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #2334100SQUARE_ROOTParticipantakuperma, if you read mussar books carefully, you will be amazed
by the wrongdoings committed by Jews of previous generations,
back in the days when every Jew was allegedly a Tzaddik Gamur.David HaMelech had two sons who attempted to KILL him,
and another son who forced his own sister into physical intimacy.November 20, 2024 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #2334117Could BeParticipant@Chaim87 Not sure if R’ Eliyashiv or R’ Shlomo Zalman were “talmidim” of R’ Kook (although R” Kook was R’ ELiyahivs misader kiddushin)
Also, Ponovizh does have the israeli flag on yom haatzmaut, but the Ponovizfer Rav did not say hallel. The story goes when asked why he had the flag raised but did not say hallel, he answered, “I say the same hallel just like ben gurion”.November 20, 2024 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #2334128pure yiddishkeitParticipant@Chaim87,
You make me laugh!
The Chafetz Chaim walked out? huh?
The Chafetz Chaim, when being shown a piece written by “rav” kook about playing football to build muscles and boys and girls dancing together having the ma’alah of tikun chatzot – afra lepumei, he wouldn’t touch the paper, instead shoving it with his elbow to the floor and shouting – “kook, shmook drook!” Apikoires!And then you say “Satmar Rebs and briska Rav were very holy and anti DL. But they weren’t the mainstream of klal Yisroel”.
So quite clearly you outline yourself as DL or MO, because, whether you are a satmar chassid or not, a brisker or not, to say they were not the “mainstream” means only one thing, that what you call mainstream and what most people call mainstream is obviously not the same thing.
The biggest lie is that they wer “da’as yachid” (funny thing to be able to call more than one Gadol in the singular term Da’as Yachid).Let’s get this straight, if you have an agenda here, than yes, anyone who veers from the path of zionist idol worship (or at least in some way seemed to have a positive view partly even), is not mainstream.
But if you follow and want the truth lets go through this:The Satmar Rav was NOT a da’as yachid for many reasons but two basic reasons:
1) Many Rabbanim, Posikim and Rebbe’s agreed and followed that way, which only after the war was branded the “satmar shita”. before it was the common core belief of most frum, ehrlich, shomrei shabbat in the world.
It was after the Satmar Rav was machriah a big shailah in the form of his sefer Vayoel Moshe, that many Gedolim either agreed that that was what should be followed, or agreed in principle but in certain specific circumstances argued.
Those Gedolim and Poskim who did agree might have not got that much coverage and backing by hamodia or even the opposite (just like the Satmar Rav who during his lifetinme was cursed and mevazeh by so called “frum” news outlets, but became a kadosh once he was niftar), but the fact remains they were Gedolim alright, e.g.
1) The Veitziner Rav – beforhand the Bergen Belsen Rav, who was the main posek after the war in the area of agunot, and his psakim are used in that area until today,
2) The Pupa Rav, who was both a major Posek and one of the first Marbitzei Torah after the war, opening a Yeshiva after the war in the USA,
3) Rav Yosef Chaim Zonnenfeld (- before the war), who sent a sheila to the Satmar rav about what the Da’as Torah on “rav” kook is (at the time Rav Zonnenfeld was probably in his eighties whilst the Satmar Rav was maybe in his early thirties but Rav Zonnendfeld felt that he needed to ask him), and the Teshuva is printed in Shu”t Divrei Yoel 131 or 132,
4) Rav Zelig bengis,
5) Rav Pinchas Yungreis,
6) Rav Avraham Kalmanovitch (Mir USA),
7) Vadislaver rav,
8) Tosher Rebbe,
9) Skulener Rebbes,
10) The Bobover Rebbe’s (although in many areas they mostly didn’t publicly speak, besides for Rav Naftuli of Bobov who was much more vocal),
11) Rav Mottele Vizhnitzer (USA),
12) The Brisker Rav,
13) The Chazon Ish,
and the list goes on an on.
(these examples were not gedolim who followed every word of Vayoel Moshe only, but also who generally agreed with the outlook, even if certain specifics were paskened otherwise).However they are all not mainstream because of their outright anti-zionism, aha i get it, by you zionism is the mainstream? fine then B”H I am not from the mainstream..
November 20, 2024 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #2334151ParticipantParticipant“and your neighbor (who you are protecting), doesn’t need to because of the color of his shirt and the material of his kippah.”
I just hate, fiercely and passionately, these misrepresentations of facts, i.e. lies. The color of the shirt has NOTHING, nor does charedism, for that matter. (although both parties use that term), to do with their non-conscription. Lies are worse than the ignorance spewed by 95% of the “chareidim” or “yeshiva bochurim” who churn out prepared sound-bytes explaining the situation.
November 20, 2024 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #2334281Ari KnoblerParticipantSomeone needs to write an article on the Zionist rebbes who settled in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv and established courts there starting in the 1920s. Among these were the Drohobyczer Rebbe of Jerusalem (d. 1924), the Husyatiner Rebbe of Tel Aviv (d. 1956), and the Sadigurer Rebbe of Tel Aviv (d. 1972). Also, the Bohusher Rebbe and the Pashkaner Rebbe.
Another buried historical artifact is how a Zionist heir to a very large and prominent Chasidus in Israel was passed over because of his pro-Israel stance.
From the fevered rantings of certain Johnny One-Note commentators, one might think that every Rebbe or Charedi leader shared their views.
November 20, 2024 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #2334315ModernChassidParticipantThere is a common problem of people equating modern day DL with zionism of the previous generation.
They are two different worlds that have very little in common. The DL world is committed to Torah and to E”Y and do not make compromises. In very ways their world and the Chareidi world are similar in terms of commitment and passion to their values. Just where you point the needle seems to account for their differences.
To those who equate DL and zionism you just show your עם ארצות and naivetyNovember 20, 2024 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #2334316ModernChassidParticipantRov Elchonon’s zionism and modern day DL are worlds apart.
You look silly and foolish to equate them.November 21, 2024 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #2334391DaMosheParticipantCould Be: you left out part of the story. In Ponovezh they didn’t say Tachnun on Yom Ha’atzmaut either, and the Rav said that he does like Ben Gurion – no Tachnun and no Hallel. When the Rav passed away, the minhag was changed.
November 21, 2024 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #2334492Ari KnoblerParticipantModerator: There is a commenter here writing “afra lepumei” (“may his mouth [be filled with] dust”) — a severe Talmudic curse — in reference to Rav Kook zt”l as well as attributing an unsubstantiated opprobrium to the Chafetz Chaim zt”l. The person who wrote this puts the word Rav in quotes when referring to Rav Kook. In addition to possessing very bad middot, this commenter is also an ignoramus, unaware that when Rebbe Alter of Ger zt”l visited Palestine in 1924, the first person he went to visit was Rav Kook. Whatever philosophical differences may separate us from other Jews, these great men were veritable angels who deserve our respect, reverence, and our honesty.
November 21, 2024 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #2334509ZSKParticipantBashing Charedim? No. Harshly critcising? Absolutely. Harsh criticism is not “bashing”.
“There is a common problem of people equating modern day DL with zionism of the previous generation. They are two different worlds that have very little in common. The DL world is committed to Torah and to E”Y and do not make compromises. In very ways their world and the Chareidi world are similar in terms of commitment and passion to their values. Just where you point the needle seems to account for their differences.”
Exactly right. DL is consistently misconstrued as being Herzl/Ben-Gurion-esque Zionism – an ideologically secularist, anti-religious movement, which was what the גדולים of previous generations were against. But DL being part of such a movement? No. DL never worshipped the state as Charedim claim. Do they view it as possibly the אתחלתא דגאולה? Yes. That hardly means state worship or any form of “idolatry”, just a more positive view of the state of affairs. No one DL would say the state is a לכתחילה – it very obviously isn’t. The practical difference between Charedism and DL as far as Judaism is concerned is essentially boils down to 2-3 מי שברכים (that Charedim in Israel should probably be saying per פרקי אבות) and two extra days with a quasi-chag davening. Most of the other noticeable, external differences are cultural.
(FWIW, In the same vein, DL is often mixed up with MO, when the two are completely different. The former is more akin to the traditional, Orthodox view of Tikkun Olam with the goal of the final גאולה (per עלינו לשבח) whereas the latter is more about survival in the modern era as an Orthodox Jew or trying to find the best mix of modernity and Judaism (depending on whether you link it to TiDE or TuM).
As for the keyboard warriors here who degrade רבנים outside the Charedi world, may הקב״ה have mercy on your souls after 120 for your consistent and constant denigration of תלמידי חכמים, רבנים, דיינים, etc.
November 21, 2024 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #2334517Litvish95ParticipantThis is not true. It is known that the one who said “Kook Shnook” was not the Chofetz Chaim, and unfortunately, a false version of this story has become widespread. It is well known that Rav Chaim Ozer, Rav Isser Zalman Meltzer, the Netziv, Rav Shlomo Zalman, Rav Elyashiv and many other gedolim respected Rav Kook immensely. While one can question his approach to secular zionism, and follow gedolim who disagreed with him, there is often a Yetzer Hara (seemingly worse today than a hundred years ago) to bash anyone who one does not see eye to eye with. Please see the Netziv in his Hakdama to Bereishis about suspicion of others being tzidokim, apikorsim etc., and the damage such thoughts can cause.
Regardless of his view of the state, the Chazon Ish sent a shaila to Rav Kook a week after his arrival in EY, which provides clear proof that he valued Rav Kook as a talmid chochom. (There is also a verified story about the Chazon Ish standing throughout an address by Rav Kook at the opening of a yeshiva in Bnei Brak.) Let us learn the lessons of Yoma 9b.
November 21, 2024 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #2334584anonymous JewParticipantIt’s difficult to equate pre-Holocaust positions to what Reb Elchonon Wassermanmight might have held had he survived. One of his sons , David, relocated to Brooklyn and sent his eldest son, who was named after Reb Elchonon, to a Zionost MO yeshiva ( Yeshiva of Flatbush ). I know this to be true because my wife was in his class.
November 21, 2024 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #2334656Chaim87Participant@pure yiddishkeit,
Ill start with syaing that your comment is just from a modern day brainwashing’s of whityewashing facts They never taught you the truth because that would change your narritve.
Chafetz chaim: People are very quick to make a stink of one comment that the chafetz chaim said to one person pirvately. And the turth is he didn’t hold of everything R kook did. But FACTS are he walked out of a convetnion in front of hundreds of people for the kovod of R Kook. This is undisputable vs your one on one comment. It was a public display. Furthermore, R Kook shever helped write the chafetz chaim’s sefer (I believe the one about being drafted and fighting). After the Aderes was nifter he asked R kook to help. Thats a fact.Birska Rav didn’t even have a yeshiva and had maybe 100 talmidum. Stamar compared to aguda was tiny. Sorry the list of gedolim and followers on the other side was tiny compared to what Stamar had. That’s simply a fact.
Now some of those you list who “agreed” are nonsense. The skulner never did such a thing and nevr tooka stand. Furthermore, let me tell you something aboiut the skulner reba’s rebbe. Do you knwo he was a talmud of the Shtfeneshta reba? Ypu probably neve rheard of him because your narrow world only the kaniom were gedolim. But the shtefenshta reba had a picture of Herzel in his study. Again public knoweldge. Everyone knows that the skulner’s rebbe was a proud Zionist. In fact all Rizyhna rebas were proud zionists.
Now bobov : R shlomola disn’t mix in nor get involved in this.
Most of the other gedolim listed were on the badatz so yes they were against zionsim too. Thats true.
Chazan ish was mixed becuase he was pro voting.
The puppa, Tosha reba and vzhnitza are more modern day rabbonim and don’t count as part of this machlokos.To the commenter about Punivtcha rav and hallel. Firstly I believe on the first year he said. Secondly, The punvitcha rav was a bit of a politican who said things at all times. But if you look at him in his entity you’ll see he was pro zionsim. in 1952 by the big hanchas even hapinah of the Punvitch grounds he had all the non frum left wing cehvra haknest there some were star speakers. The eidah wrote patchkeviln and hung sings all opver the streets of meah shearim against the Punvitcha. The land of the yeshiva is from his best friend back in telz or the breakoff who became frie and an influential knesset member. So yes he was a zionist.
Now here is the thing. We all agree that- “secularism” is bad. And so once the war ended and the state of israel was formed, the opposition and fights became more about how to we deal with secularism trying to be imposed on our torah in the modern day. The question was no longer should there be a state but rather how do we fight secularism? And so in that sense it became more popular and sensible to adopt the Satmar reba shita to oppose a “secular” govt. But in as much as the actual idea of having a state before moshiach and zionsim itself, its not so clear. And you may have a list of what i count 10 or so gedolim. (ike is aid the post 1960 gedolim don’t count) however, i can list 50 that said a state is is the torah way (Not a secular one but yes a state)
November 21, 2024 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #2334657Chaim87ParticipantI think one can equate modern day DL who is very frum and keep halacha to how many many holy gedolim held pre war when they supported zionsim. People like the rizyna rebas , imeri Emes and so many others too large to list envisoned the DL model.
November 24, 2024 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #2334693ujmParticipantHaGaon HaRav Elchonon Wasserman zt”l sorry specifically made his comments regarding the DL/Religious Zionists. He also made comments directly regarding Rabbi Kook.
AJ: His son has no bearing on his father. Do you also imagine he supported coed schools, like your wife attended? You gotta be kidding. Rav Elchonon refused to even step into the YU building when invited, when he was in the United States.
November 24, 2024 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #2334713Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantDaMoshe > When the Rav passed away, the minhag was changed.
If we were talking about some other issue, like the color of the socks or form of the hat – such a statement will be unthinkable. But here – nobody protested the honor of the Rav?!
November 24, 2024 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #2334716Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantLitvish > one who said “Kook Shnook” was not the Chofetz Chaim
I just wanted to ask whether Chofetz Chaim was known to use such language towards anyone else. I saw his writings about non-religious organizations and his words are sometimes strong but never silly. I don’t know about oral usage, of course.
November 24, 2024 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #2334722Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantanonJ> It’s difficult to equate pre-Holocaust positions to what Reb Elchonon Wasserman might might have held had he survived.
a very good point. In general, it is a very different thing to have an attitude towards an idea, a hopeful development, and a de-facto successful country with actual “people an animals” (Yona)
R Eliashev (at least) once said (on a minor topic) “I do not have ruach hakodesh”. I don’t know about others, but possible some of them also did not. So, their opinions towards early Zionists may not be the same as now several generations later.
Look (repeating myself) at Bava Basra description of development of educational system – it is purely pragmatic: different systems are tried over several generations until a successful one is developed. So, T’Ch did not always have ruach hakodesh then also, but it did not stop them from acting. They did not say – see, schools are bad, let’s keep everyone ignorami.
Apply same approach to Medinah – Rabbonim saw early problems, made political decisions, this was repeated several times, situation now is a result of time passed and their actions. It is a practical question what to do now, and reverting to old opinions in new circumstances is not an answer.
November 24, 2024 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #2334746truth2powerParticipant@Participant
“The color of the shirt has NOTHING, nor does charedism, for that matter. (although both parties use that term), to do with their non-conscription.”Give me one other explanation for why they are exempt from service?
They are Jews, just like the rest of the country, who are not exempt.
They are Israeli citizens, just like the rest of the country, who are not exempt.
They learn Torah in Yeshiva, just like the Dati Leumi bochrim, who are not exempt.So if you can find me any other difference between the Charedim and the rest of the Israeli population apart from cultural self-identification, I will withdraw my statement.
Good luck.
November 24, 2024 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #2334830please and thank youParticipantTruthtopower “Not particularly surprising.
Imagine if you had to leave your wife, kids, job, kollel or yeshiva for over a year, putting your life at risk or even losing it…and your neighbor (who you are protecting), doesn’t need to because of the color of his shirt and the material of his kippah.
It makes no sense and is causing a huge amount of anger.”What you wrote is ridiculous. No one has to do anything because of the clothes they wear. People make their own choices. Moshiach will come when we learn not to get ruffled at another yid expressing their koach habechirah.
November 27, 2024 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #2335488Chaim87ParticipantThere is no question that in terms of ehrlichkit many of the hesder boys are just as ehrlich and torahdik as ponvitch. Its simply ignoring the facts if you say otherwise. Now there are fair questions such as
1) Is torah protecting us and maybe its wrong for charedim who are learning fight at all? Or maybe the Hesder approach of mixing the two is correct. Both sides are torhadik views.
2) What about the securlairm of the army? Hesder boys have a strong system and upbringing that enables them to insulate in the army without being affected. Can charedim do the same? They don’t have that kind of background nor do they really have a system set up in the army like hesder. They also won’t be sedning the strong leraning boys to the army and only the “weaker” boys will go
3) What about the chasdim? You can’t set up a system in the army that satisfies all of Ger’s takunas etc.Then there is the ideology.
1) Is zionism and the idea of jews having a state against the torah and its views? Sure there is a list of gedolim and tzadkim who were anti zionism albiet mostly hungarian jews and a minor few ltifish like Briska rav and R Elchnonon. But then there were just a ton of rabbonim (too many too list) who were Ok with zionism too. Mizrachi was even initally part of agudah. So both are the torah view
2) After 1948 and the medina was founded. Now the question of whether we should have a country is no longer a question. Now its how do we deal with the secular threat since its a secular state. Here you now have an interesting turn. Big rebas like R Arela Blezer and the lubvatcha rebas who were previously very against the idea of a statehood now said this is the reality lets be part of it once its here. Meanwhile other rebas who were perhaps more zionistic like the rizyna rebas moved towards the “right” realzing that yes we should be part of the govt but at the same time now its no longer a question of “joining up” with them for the ideal of a state. We got the state and we will be thankful but now we have to watch our from secularism.And thus its two distinct question. Jews having their own statehood many gedolim held yes. Now how about the secular threat? Thats where charedim and hesder went differnet ways on how to build those walls. But again both follow our torah
November 27, 2024 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #2335594Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant>Rav Elchonon refused to even step into the YU building when invited, when he was in the United States.
This was apparently a minority opinion at a time. R Schkop, R Kotler, and many others were not avoiding Yeshiva college building. Also, looking into that further – it seems that Rav Elchonon personally read German philosophy (Kant) and Russian newspapers … apparently, he opposed teaching Torah and science in the same building.
Relevant to this topic, when discussing great Jewish figures, R Spektor [RIETS named after him] is a great one (future Chofetz Chaim came to him for hashgoha), and he supported Chovevei Tzion.
November 28, 2024 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #2336220ParticipantParticipant@lies2power
How damaged is your soul that you have to contrive stupidities to protect your lies?The Tal Law exempts full-time Yeshiva students from military draft. The law does not differentiate between the various labels of Judaism, nor their shirt colors.
So there you have it. Yeshiva students do not fight in the IDF because they are full-time yeshiva students.
Why do Hesder yeshiva boys fight in the army?
Because they [or their yeshivos] CHOOSE not to accept the exemption. Were they to attempt, based on the Tal law, to not fight they would [have] succeeded.November 28, 2024 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #2336222ujmParticipantChaim87: About 50% of the Daati Leumi join the IDF as religious Jews but by time they exit and are discharged they are irreligious.
Aside from that, your historical accounting of the position of various Gedolim ‘s position on Zionism, and later on the State, is very inaccurate.
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