December 16, 2013 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #611585ZushyParticipant
There was one man who after his petira started appearing to his children and telling them to look into a different religion.
After it happened a few times the chidlren came together and they eventually decided that they would visit the heilige zeide, the rebbe R’ Zushye
R’ Z’ told them to dig up near the kever and tell him what they find.
They dug up near where he was buried and they found a ??? ???? AmazingDecember 17, 2013 12:00 am at 12:00 am #999004
Let’s not forget the famous saying, “Those who don’t believe any chassidishe ma’asos are kofrim, but those who believe all them are idiots.”December 17, 2013 12:56 am at 12:56 am #999005Sam2Participant
LAB: That’s a statement by the Rambam (R’ Avraham Ben HaRambam?) about Midrashim. It might be stupid to believe none (or all) of them, but it certainly isn’t K’firah to believe none.December 17, 2013 3:15 am at 3:15 am #999006
How is that a chassidishe maaseh? Are dreams chassidish? Are getchke’s chassidish? Why do you need to make fun of the story just because one of the characters in the story happened to be chassidish. If the guy was having dreams and they did find a cross, why can’t you just take the facts as they appear? Nobody is forcing you to take an interpretation of the facts, but how do facts become chassidish?
Is the following a chassidishe maaseh: A chossid once was walking down 18th avenue, and he went into Mendelsohns and ate pizza.December 17, 2013 3:27 am at 3:27 am #999007Torah613TorahParticipant
I heard that maasah once. I think it continues that then he joined a litvish sheva brachos and made everyone dance in a circle, and drink beer, and everyone who danced in that circle and drank beer noticed the next day that their white hairs had turned black. Even the blonde people.December 17, 2013 3:49 am at 3:49 am #999008scy4851Participant
a litvak walks into a chasidishe shtiebel and sees the oilom eating a big seudah.
He asks, what’s going on?
They answer him that it’s the rebbeh’s yahrtzeit.
He says to them, “I hated him too, but ?? ??? ???”
Is this a Chasidishe ma’aseh?December 17, 2013 5:00 am at 5:00 am #999009
Popa, the Chassidish part is that the Rebbe figured it out.December 17, 2013 6:05 am at 6:05 am #999010
Is that the end of the story?December 17, 2013 6:12 am at 6:12 am #999011
HaLeiVi, no; afterwards, he bentched.December 17, 2013 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #999012
Oooh, are we telling chassidishe maisos? Remember the rules of chassidishe maisos:
1. If it’s spring or summer time, you’re safe. All the stories where someone is in trouble only happen in the winter, when people are freezing.
2. There must be a wagon driver involved.
3. There must be someone imprisoned by the poretz.
4. Every nation used rubles as its currency.
I’m sure there are more rules I’m forgetting.
Yes, the horse usually falls into a ditch.December 17, 2013 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #999013tzaddiqMember
…and they have to stay over in a kretchma overnight because the weather was freezing and snow was making travel impossibleDecember 17, 2013 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #999014
Also, every poritz and galach is really a Jew who the Czar drafted into the army when they were a little boy.December 17, 2013 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #999015
Leitzanim. Uvemoshav leitzim lo Yashav. There are 1000s of documented true stories passed down from Rebbe to Rebbe. By making light of them you rob yourself and others of the ability to be inspired. We had Tzaddikim like the Lubavitcher the Steipler and others who had ruach hakodesh and did mofsim in the last 30 to 40 years the Tzaddikim in the past were much greater so why is it so hard for you guys to accept that? Did you ever hear of the holy Ribnitzer Rebbe? Neis was teva by him there are loads of eye witness stories about him.December 17, 2013 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #999016
WIY: Nobody is saying that the Rebbes weren’t big tzaddikim. It’s just that not all the stories are true, and there seem to be a large amount of things that are common to a lot of the stories.December 17, 2013 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #999017
WIY, I don’t think anyone here is denying the idea of mofsim. IIRC, DaMoshe once posted such a story about his own rebbe, Rabbi Wachsman.
I think there was innocent humor here, not leitzonus.December 17, 2013 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #999018
For the record there were also many stories by Sefardim like by the Baba Sali. There are also a few stories about Chacham Ovadia zatzal. You guys need to know where to draw the line with the jokes. I’m quite annoyed with this thread.December 17, 2013 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #999019December 17, 2013 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #999020
The Rebbes themselves will tell you not all Rebbestories you hear are true but there are many many true stories that have been passed down faithfully.December 17, 2013 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #999021
Why do you assume the line has been crossed? The jokes are about the similarity of the stories, not about the ability of tzaddikim to be the conduit for mofsim.December 17, 2013 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #999022
WIY: nobody is claiming otherwise. But the fact remains that many stories are not true, and for some reason, a lot of them seem to involve a wagon driver, cold weather, and a poretz.December 17, 2013 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #999023
Well this thread wasn’t heading in a good direction I can’t say for a fact what each person who commented believes but this wagon was headed to the wrong kretchmer so I figured I’d stop it before it went too far.December 17, 2013 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #999024
I am also annoyed by this thread, as I noted earlier.December 17, 2013 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #999025
popa: with the amounts of threads you started that annoy me, I’m actually glad that I’m finally annoying you with some of my posts.
I think that you’re guilty of lifnei iver by posting annoying threads, because now you caused me to be happy at taking revenge.December 17, 2013 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #999026golferParticipant
This wagon was headed to the wrong kretchma.
I seem to notice we’re actually heading there together in the snow!
Better be careful before our horse (Which CR member wants to play the part of the horse?) lands in the ditch.
(I guess we already know which CR member wants to be the poritz and which one is the Rebbe.)December 17, 2013 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #999027
WIY, do you still think we should stop horsing around?December 17, 2013 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #999028
Let me ask Ivan the baal hagaalah.December 17, 2013 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #999030
Daas yochid, why do these “jokes” happen to come in only at the mention of a(n incomplete) Maase?
Another burning question I have about this famous disclaimer is that somehow it became so important to invoke it and remember that not EVERY SINGLE story is accurate, while the part about accepting in a general sense is completely gone. Why are people adamant that it could have happened but refuse to accept that it did.December 17, 2013 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #999031miritchkaMember
Zushy: I cant type in hebrew, but can you please explain what the text in hebrew that you typed, means? Also, After reading this thread, I’m a bit surprised that you feel ignored…December 17, 2013 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #999032
It means warp and weft.December 17, 2013 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #999033apushatayidParticipant
the warp and weft is important to certain religion that had as its leader a member of the medical profession.
Oh, that’s a snake wrapped around a staff, never mind.December 17, 2013 11:53 pm at 11:53 pm #999034
HaLeiVi, I’m usually sensitive to when humor is used for leitzanus, but in this case I felt that DaMoshe was attacked unfairly.December 18, 2013 2:44 am at 2:44 am #999035
Reb S Y Zevin brings this story.December 18, 2013 3:25 am at 3:25 am #999036Veltz MeshugenerMember
OP left out the best part of the story, which is only slightly less likely to have happened.
They told this story to the Vilna Gaon, and he said, “That the dreams happened and they found the crucifix doesn’t surprise me – that’s a befeirushe yerushalmi. What surprises me is that a chassidishe rebbe knew the yerushalmi!”
And they went back and told R’ Zishe what the Gaon had said, and he replied, “indeed, I did not know the Yerushalmi. So how did I know what to do? The same way the Yerushalmi found out, I found out.”
They undoubtedly went back to the Gaon and received another rejoinder, but alas, I haven’t heard that part.December 18, 2013 3:52 am at 3:52 am #999037ItcheSrulikMember
I once tried to get in to see the Bobover (there can be only one just like MacLeods) but I couldn’t so I decided to open up a Kretchmeh in the middle of nowhere that way I’ll be able to see all the Rebbes I could ever want. The only downside is that I’ll only ever see them in the middle of the night.
PS Two thirds of the above story is true.
On a related note, one of my favorite true Rebbe stories is the one about the Naroller who went to shamayim every year and missed the first night of slichos. One year some misnagdim decided to follow him to find out where he really went. They saw the rebbe leave his house through a back door without his shmoyneh b’goodim and go into the forest. They trailed him and saw him chop wood in the forest and carry it to a cottage where a sick widow was living with three children. He took the wood, built them a fire, and cooked them a meal. When the misnagdim got back to town they told everyone that the Naroller was not ??? ????? but “much higher.”December 18, 2013 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #999038
Where is that Yerushalmi? I found in Brachos, where it says Sifvasav Dovevos Kakomer..:)December 18, 2013 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #999039
OK. So what elements are always in personal Hashgacha Pratis stories.
1) A personal commitment to something that’s not technically an Aveira.
2) A down moment.
3) Natural and common but unexpected.
4) Perfect timing.
What did I leave out?December 18, 2013 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #999040Trust 789Member
I don’t believe the OP story. For a person who went to the next world to come down and tell his children to go to a different religion makes no sense.December 18, 2013 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #999041
I know there is hashgacha pratis, but I find the stories stupid.
Every flight has some people who just miss it. Some flights crash.
Some lotteries have a winning ticket. Someone has to hold it.December 18, 2013 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #999042
How do you know where he went? And if he was buried in reeds does he go up then, too? Did you really unlock all the secrets of the system beyond? Do you know if this was his Neshama or Ruach or perhaps his Guf or maybe his Malbush? There’s a reason people desire a Jewish burial.December 18, 2013 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #999043
Yeah, but when R’ Aharon Kotler tells a crying wife that her husband must not have been on the flight because shluchei mitzvah einom nizokin and he was going purely l’sheim shomayim, and it turns out that he did indeed miss the flight, it’s a great story.December 18, 2013 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #999044
“I know there is hashgacha pratis, but I find the stories stupid.”
I find your comment stupid. The point is that whomever missed the flight had hashgacha pratis. You have hashgacha pratis throughout your day. Its not always “story worthy” but its always happening. It is the stories that refocus us and allow us to remember and be mindful that everything that happens to us is Hashgacha pratis.December 18, 2013 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #999045Little FroggieMember
We daven often to HaShem ?????? ?’ ?????, let us behold your goodness. No, it isn’t going to be obvious, otherwise the great “game” is over. Of course it’s hidden, and one has to discern HaShem’s direct hand in all daily occurrences.
It says somewhere ?? ???? ?????? ??, ?? ???? ??????? ????. One mocker who wishes to disbelieve will have free reign, a sincere seeker will be helped. (Interesting that the gemarah equates ?? ???? with ??? ????) An oved HaShem rejoices more from the recognition of HaShem’s helping hand than of the yeshua brought about.December 18, 2013 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #999046
Most Nissim were natural occurrences but the timing is the Os. That’s what number 4 was about.
Actually, that comment of mine is a Macha’a, in case you didn’t realize. Perhaps Popa is merely playing along. I was going to put that comment in the resisting-a-song thread, but my page went blank upon submission. I got the hint and left it, but I figured it can go here. So, there you got another HP story.December 18, 2013 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #999047
HaLeiVi and popa_bar_abba –December 18, 2013 11:14 pm at 11:14 pm #999048
????? ?????: ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ???December 19, 2013 12:35 am at 12:35 am #999049squeakParticipant
The reason most of these stories involve a tavern is because that is generally where they were made up, during typical drinking one upmanship entertainment. Like Paul Bunyan, only since the heroes happened to be Rebbes in the Jewish stories, they became Gospel.December 19, 2013 1:27 am at 1:27 am #999050Ragachovers AssistantMember
A pious Jew passed away. Subsequently he kept appearing in a dream to his children asking them to convert. They went to Reb Zusha for advice. Reb Zusha said that probably the grave diggers, who were mostly non-Jewish and generally wearing crosses, have dropped a cross while digging the grave, and this is the source of the dreams. They dug up the grave, found the cross and removed it, and the dreams stopped.
There are several problems with this story. First, it is forbidden to dig up a grave in such a case. Second, there is no such Yerushalmi.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe (Igros Kodesh, Volume 11 Page 269) tries to resolve the first problem by suggesting that perhaps the digging was done around the perimeter of the grave, but not the grave itself. However, he asks the writer if he could advise him as to where the Yerushalmi is, (implying that there is no such Yerushalmi).
??”? ??”? ?’ ???
????? ????: ??? ????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?????
??????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???, ??? ??
???? ?????? ????? ????.
?? ???? ?? ?? ?????. ???? ????December 19, 2013 4:16 am at 4:16 am #999051
I don’t think the idea is that the Yerushalmi says if someone comesto you in a dream saying you should convert, dig him up and find a warp and weft. The Gra probably had a Diyuk from some Yerusalmi, that few are likely to catch, which showed that this would happen.
Another theory is that one question answers the other. The Yerushalmi in question was Meduyak that for the benefit of what would please the father you may dig him up. The Gra was surprised that the Rebbe Reb Zushe cameto the same conclusion to allow them to open the grave.
When he said that he got it from the same place that refers to the idea that it is a simple Svara. It can also be a tit for tat answer for a remark like that. It can also be that he meant what he said.December 19, 2013 4:53 am at 4:53 am #999052
I am amazed by the number of people here who can conclude that something is not in the yershalmi on the basis that they don’t remember it.
The lubavitcher rebbe I understand–he knew it from the same place the yerushalmi didn’t.December 19, 2013 8:01 am at 8:01 am #999053YW Moderator-42Moderator
Popa, when are you starting daf yomi in Yerushalmi?
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