December 20, 2010 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #719445
Why hasn’t anyone mentioned outside influence as a cause for divorce rates? Be it Litvish or Chasidish
Yes. Very big cause.December 20, 2010 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #719446
The best response to this idea, was posted several months ago, and is too long to repost. It was in response to the suggestion that the guys date at 18.December 20, 2010 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #719447
Sac, yeah, I know. And I have so many things to answer to that that wouldn’t be approved.December 20, 2010 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #719448
In any event- we are at two extremes.
Beshows are extreme and dating became very extreme.
I wish we can find a middle way.December 20, 2010 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #719449
How is dating extreme?
It is practiced differently in different circles, but in yeshivish circles, they generally go on about 8 dates before getting engaged. What is so extreme?December 20, 2010 11:09 pm at 11:09 pm #719450WolfishMusingsParticipant
The WolfDecember 20, 2010 11:39 pm at 11:39 pm #719451
Prost. Gemain. Forget it.December 20, 2010 11:50 pm at 11:50 pm #719452
Popa- 8 dates with the 8th girl. Do your math. What number date is a boy up to by the time he dates THE ONE?
With how many girls did he enjoy the evening?
I’m not here to say whether its right or wrong, but extreme it is.December 21, 2010 12:04 am at 12:04 am #719453
I don’t know what you mean by “extreme”.
Maybe you can elaborate.December 21, 2010 12:05 am at 12:05 am #719454psach libi bsorasechaMember
i don’t feel like going back to reread the posts i’m responding to, but anyway:
first of all, in order to implement this idea of boys dating younger, you would have to have rabbonim and roshei yeshiva drilling this into the boys, and u’d have to get them to come out and tell the velt that this is how its gonna go from now on. which rov or r’y is gonna do that? they want the bachurim to sit and learn!
also, the crisis is not coming from the way we date IMHO. i think its coming from a deeper “priorities crisis” if you will. i think that the priorities of many ppl are messed up and we are looking first at the superficial, rather than what’s really important. now there’s a problem that needs fixing.December 21, 2010 12:22 am at 12:22 am #719455
And how many aishes ishs does he have in his memory bank by the time he’s stuck with a fat, pregnant, moody wife?December 21, 2010 12:36 am at 12:36 am #719457
Msseeker- the question is how many images of girls he has in his mind even before he gets married!December 21, 2010 1:06 am at 1:06 am #719458
It’s all about kedusha v’tahara. And the scariest part is that we’re talking about their BEST BOYS. And this steep price for what? So that he’ll choose the best wife over the thinnest and prettiest? Fat chance (pun intended).December 21, 2010 2:09 am at 2:09 am #719459ronrsrMember
>>>A boy who knows that he needs to get married at 18-19 (chassidish-style) will mature at that age. If he knows he doesn’t have to get married till 22-23 – he’ll <<<
some will, some won’t. In my experience, many 18 year old girls find 18 year old boys rather immature and boring, but I”m not against giving it a try.December 21, 2010 2:32 am at 2:32 am #719461
Msseeker and smartcookie:
What you are doing is very wrong. This goes beyond debating the efficacy of different customs. Your attacks on our way of life are condescending at best.
There are many things I could criticize about your way of life, and many of them would be straight from the words of the gedolei acharonim.
Yet, our worlds seem to have called a truce, and we have decided to respect each other’s avodas hashem. It behooves you to keep the peace.December 21, 2010 2:47 am at 2:47 am #719462lkwdfellowMember
ronrsr – I agree that many 18 year old girls find 18 year old boys rather immature and boring. But, then again they might find 22-23 year olds also immature and boring. My point was only – if a boy is in the mindset that he needs to get married at 18-19,chances are he’ll mature at that age, as opposed to if he knows he doesn’t even need to think about shidduchim till 22-23…December 21, 2010 3:02 am at 3:02 am #719463Trying my bestMember
popa: Early in the thread there was an attack on the way of life practiced by the posters you reference (prior to either of them even commenting here.) You hadn’t protested that attack, yet here you are full of protestation, with the shoe on the other foot.
In any event, to the best of my knowledge (and I stand to be correct otherwise), the current dating practices you and I practice have no basis in traditional minhugim that are supported by gedolei acharonim, but rather are an American developed system. I don’t see anything the two posters you criticized said, that is beyond the pale of discussion.
P.S. You can also criticize Rambam using words straight from the gedolei rishonim. Nevertheless, as in our case here, both Rambam and his dissenters have subsequently been fully accepted in the Torah world, and reviving any criticism of old is both invalid and counterproductive.December 21, 2010 3:13 am at 3:13 am #719464ronrsrMember
I think if schools would teach all social skills for dating, that would be very useful, too. If the 18 year old boys were polished slightly, they might start to appeal to 18 y.o. girls.December 21, 2010 3:48 am at 3:48 am #719466stamagoyMember
if we all put our minds together we cud solve the crisis. i assume evryone here is a yenta so we all know tons of people if we all submitted diff name sof ppl we know we cud make it happenDecember 21, 2010 4:02 am at 4:02 am #719468
Mdd- I never said your way is wrong.
When my kids grow up I don’t think I’ll put them into a Shidduch blindly. I think I will give them a little more chance to get to know each others.
But I wouldn’t let them be out alone late at night, go to restaurants, games, etc.
Again, I don’t think these things are wrong, but we’re a lot safer without them.December 21, 2010 4:06 am at 4:06 am #719469
The only attacks on the chassidish system were it’s results and only in response to a suggestion that we adopt it- not the motivations. Therein lies the difference.
What was beyond the pale of discussion were the attacks on the motivation behind our system, which has been endorsed by our gedolim.
Your postscript is precisely my point. I will not repeat the criticisms of the vilna gaon, nor the criticisms the rishonim made of the Rambam.
You should have a little respect also.December 21, 2010 1:37 pm at 1:37 pm #719472
Msseeker and Smartcookie, how many images of ladies he is going to have stuck in his mind? Al pi Halocha, one does not have to worry about it. If something improper comes to his mind, he should stop these machshovos.
Enjoing dates? He is just looking for a wife and mehuyav to properly frame his mind and not enjoy it because of spending the time with a girl. Just as if you invite a male guest to your house, he has his hiyuvim.
Makpid on looks? One is allowed to makpid a lot and to a degree one even should be makpid. Should the best boy be looking for the most beautiful girl in town? Gutte shaila.
Chemistry makes for more stable,happier marriages.December 21, 2010 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #719473tzippiMember
lkwdfellow, can you describe the typical 22-23 y.o. who is currently mature enough to get married? What are the criteria that determine when a boy is ready to defrost?December 21, 2010 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #719474
mdd, it’s about ????? ?????, as I said, not ???? per se. Therein lies the difference. This is the last I’ll say here bl”n, ????? ?????? ??? ????.December 21, 2010 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #719475
Chemistry makes for more stable,happier marriages.
Chemistry after marriage is a must. Chemistry while dating does absolutely NOT make a better marriage. You don’t need too much sense to know that.
And many marriages with so much love in the beginning, ends up in a hateful divorce.
Love doesn’t gaurantee you a happy marriage.December 21, 2010 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #719476lkwdfellowMember
tzippi – I think that criteria can be determined by each boy’s parents/Rabbeim. If they feel a boy is ready – that’s their call. My point was only that a boy’s maturity usually is connected to when he knows he needs to begin shidduchim.December 21, 2010 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #719477tzippiMember
Thanks, lkwdfellow. So this is not necessarily connected to age. A boy might be ready earlier, but possibly later. Just as a girl might be ready later, but possibly earlier. If we don’t respect the individual, then we enter the murky stage of social engineering, which gets me nervous short of such proposals coming very clearly from gedolim, and not in vague terms but outright, with specific guidelines.December 21, 2010 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #719478Jack DanielsMember
i noticed people saying that when a girl and boy meet on a beshow its basicly decided, this is completely not true,and just like on a date the boy and girl can choose not to go on. the difference is due to the fact the parents do so much research beforehand they simply meet fewer boys/girls before finding their bashert.December 21, 2010 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #719479Jack DanielsMember
also they sit in instead of going out.and no it isn’t always in the girls home it can be at a relative or friends house to.December 21, 2010 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #719480Midwest2Participant
Having known both married Chassidim and married non-Chassidim, in addition to a few things I’ve read here and there, I believe that what each group expects from marriage is slightly different. In Litvish marriages there is a lot more interdependence between the spouses, and parents become less important. Also, Litvish couples are more likely to move away, to Lakewood, EY, etc.
For Chassidish couples the emotional involvement with parents remains high, especially for young women, and spouses are not so much expected to be each other’s “best friends.” This is helped by the majority of couples staying close to their parents geographically. Look at the expansion of chassidish areas in Brooklyn, driven by the ever-growing population of newly-married Chassidim from BP.
Each group has different expectations and different systems for meeting them. The point of dating isn’t to boost statistics, it’s to produce happy marriages. If the Litvishe system as it is done right now isn’t functioning too well then we should work on fixing it, not trying to copy a system that’s designed for another type of derech. There are seventy faces to the Torah and at least that many Torah-true lifestyles.December 21, 2010 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #719481
Msseeker, as a side point, if one is not doing anything wrong al pi Halocha, others are not allowed to have tainos. Some do, though, and that is the reason for all the sinas chinom. Yosef also thought his brothers were not noheg enough kedusha ve’tahorah.December 21, 2010 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #719482americaisoverParticipant
MIDWEST 2 the chassidish family I know live in BP while the kids live in Israel, Litvaks can not work in this system since guys are learning till 25 and then need to be supported so whole the system is skewed differently, the only that can make it change is economics (meaning less people with no employment) the chassidim generally speaking work.December 21, 2010 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #719483
and spouses are not so much expected to be each other’s “best friends.”
Not necessarily true at all.
We are taught all our years that our spouse will be the most important thing to us when married.
Married Chassidish couples are best friends. They might not look it cuz they would never act “mushy” in public.December 21, 2010 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #719484
Midwest2, “Al ken ya’azov ish es aviv ve’es imo ve’dovak be’ishto…”.December 21, 2010 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #719485
Can you please change your screenname? There is something odd and wrong about predicting the downfall of the country we live in and owe a lot to.December 21, 2010 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #719486americaisoverParticipant
Popa I know we owe a lot to this country: taxes and debt.December 21, 2010 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #719487gavra_at_workParticipant
Not necessarily true at all.
We are taught all our years that our spouse will be the most important thing to us when married.
Married Chassidish couples are best friends. They might not look it cuz they would never act “mushy” in public.
Very true, and a good thing. One should not be “mushy” in public in any case, there is no need to announce what you are up to.
I would (IMHO, I am not a Chassid expert) rephrase & say thet the couple is expected to grow together after being married vs. falling in love before being married.
The dimyon is once again, Fiddler on the Roof. Once you are in that mindset, it makes sense.December 21, 2010 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #719488
Very cute. Now change it.
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