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Is one allowed to say targum before chumash-rashi (lechatchila)?
Interesting question. i will be by Rav Nissim Karelitz on sunday, and i will ask him if their is a specific order that it should be said in.
I was told — no.
Really ??? Your Rav knows all this ?
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?”? ??? ??”? ?
You should have looked it up yourself.
Tzefatview I sure hope you see this before you see Rav Nissim K.
& wont advertise your ?? ??????
Can someone please elaborate for me why it’s assur to recite the Targum Onkelos before learning the Chumash and Rashi?
I ask because I very often look at Onkelos while learning Chumash without necessarily looking at Rashi first. Am I transgressing some commandment that I am not aware of? Have I damned myself to an even lower circle of hell in the afterlife?
Seriously… I can’t fathom why this should be assur. I’m completely baffled.
The Wolf
Can someone please elaborate for me why it’s assur to recite the Targum Onkelos before learning the Chumash and Rashi? Who said that ??
Learnig ??”? & ???”? ARE 2 ????? . True ther is discussion in the Poskim whether one is Yotzeh Tragum with Rashi, There is even dicussion whether Melamdim who teach Chumash are yotzeh???”? .
Ah, okay. No one told me this was in the context of Shnayim Mikra… I thought he was talking about learning in general.
Makes more sense now. At least that’s one less reason why I’m going to hell.
The Wolf
Why not? Especially since shnayim mikra was done chhumash-targum for centuries before Rashi was born. I think the you’re asking if it’s lechatchila to say the targum before the shnayim mikra.
Isn’t shnayim mikra mean the pasuk twice and tagume once (pasuk by pasuk)?
Don’t you have something better to do?
Gabboim- There are different ways brought down to do it.
wants to be WIY brought them down above.
What kind of a way is that to address somebody by saying his question is Am Haaratzut? There is a famous story about a gadol who was asked a simple question by a woman about tarfus. He examined the chicken and then went to learn for a half an hour so she would think it was an involved question and then answered. He did not want to insult her, or to discourage her from asking again.
I personally think G-d will not be too angry if somebody does the order in the way it helps him learn the best.
For the umpteenth time, all halacha li’maseh shailos should be asked to qualified Rov, not put to a vote by a board of anonymous bloggers who may or may not have any idea what they’re talking about.
Even today, the Teimanim read the Torah by reading a pasuk and pausing for the reading of the targum.
Since once upon a time the targum was an understandable translation of the mikra, it is only logical that the original text come before the translation.
I once heard a very interesting shiur on the topic that explained the din of maavir sedrah from two perspectives; understanding the text, and (slightly al pi sod) reenacting har sinai. According to the first pshat, anything goes which is why you are yotze with Rashi. According to the second pshat, the Targum Onkelos represents the process of Moshe teaching it to the people. Incidentally, that’s why the Shulchan Aruch says a God fearing person will do both; because he’s fulfilling two opinions by doing the extra targum. Don’t take a psak from this summary but its conclusion is fairly obvious.
The second tzad implies that the order is me’akev.
HaRav Elyashiv was asked by someone who was extremely tarud with very important matters in running a yeshiva if he could not do hnayim mikra due to lack of time, and answered absolutely not, but you can be yotzei one time mikra reading along with the baal korei on shabbos.
because obvoiously this person did not do it in the lechatchila order.
Since when do podiums argue? I thought the people *at* the podiums argued. 😉
For the record, I don’t believe that this question was truly randomly chosen (as per the title) out of all the possible sha’alos that could have been asked. 🙂
The Wolf
sometimes it sounds like the podiums are arguing. . .
There is a long discussion between Rav Mordechai Elyahu and Rav Eliezer Waldenberg brought down in the Tzitz Eliezer whether you can be Yotzei with the Ba’al Korei/ if you can read it once, do Targum once, and then be Yotzei Shomeah Keone with the Ba’al Korei. There are definitely Shittos that hold that the order is not Me’akeiv while most seem to hold that it is.
As an aside, the Shittah of the Ra’avan is brought down by several modern Poskim that Shnayim Mikra is just an Eitzah Tovah. Many B’nei Yeshivah who spend all of their time learning Gemara rely on this to learn Gemara instead of Chumash.
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