A Serious Question for Jewish Democrats

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  • #1661179

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    If, theoretically speaking, a very reasonable, well-received Democrat with a good chance of beating Trump announced a 2020 presidential bid, but happened to be a Hindu, would it be a problem to vote for her… err I mean him or her in the primary given that Hinduism is A”Z?

    I wonder if we’ll get a Rabbi Hoffman article on this topic closer to 2020.

    #1661216

    Avi K
    Participant

    I thought that JFK solved the question of not voting for people because of their religions. What about the opposite? Suppose someone is an Orthodox Jew but liberal on political issues.

    #1661262

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    It’s a machlokes Rishonim if Christianity is A”Z or not. Last I checked, Rabbonim have absolutely no problem voting for Christians. Why should a Hindu be different?

    #1661266

    Joseph
    Participant

    Avi: It’s better for Jews not to become politicians and rather support non-Jewish politicians who will support them.

    #1661307

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @NevilleChaimBerlin

    I don’t see much difference from when the Republicans ran a Mormon (Romney).
    It is all about the candidate’s qualifications and abilities to execute the office of POTUS.

    We have had Presidents who were Protestant (of assorted denominations) Roman Catholic and Quaker who have done the job without letting personal religious beliefs interfere with performance of the job,

    #1661366

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Making mashal’s to Christianity just shows you don’t know the halachah. Hinduism is A”Z even for goyim.

    #1661577

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    I think I made this too jovial and hypothetical to be interesting.

    Tulsi Gabbard just announced a white house bid. She is well received by populists on both sides of the spectrum, including none other than Steve Bannon. She’s a Hindu.

    How we deal with Christians is not a proof that hilchos avoida zara don’t apply today. We don’t posken that Christianity is A”Z for goyim, which is why we can buy stuff from them before their holidays. Eastern religion is, however, a problem according to everyone.

    #1661590

    1
    Participant

    Tulsi Gabbard is the most tolerable Dem

    #1661596

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    How we deal with Christians is not a proof that hilchos avoida zara don’t apply today.

    Of course hilchos a”z applies today, the question is, where does voting for a candidate who happens to be an oveid a”z fit in?

    #1661601

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Tulsi Gabbard is the most tolerable Dem”

    Agreed. More than tolerable. I intend on voting for her in the primary tentatively. It will depend on how the debates go and whether or not she is still on the ballot by the time it reaches my state. If my opinion stays the same, and the opportunity presents itself, I will have to actually ask this shailah.

    #1661614

    1
    Participant

    her biggest challenge is the toeivah crazy media doesn’t like her

    #1661613

    1
    Participant

    I’m still voting Trump. But if a dem has to win a primary, I’d take a Hindu with military experience.

    #1661622

    Joseph
    Participant

    ” I intend on voting for her in the primary tentatively.”

    Why are you a Democrat?

    The better shaila is whether it is permitted to vote for a woman

    #1661716

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    There is a reasonable chance that a moderate Dem with military background, some serious gravitas on foreign policy issues and not intent on “spreading the wealth” could beat Trump in 2020. Sadly,however, it appears that the Dems are intent on forming their usual circular firing squad and will end up moninating some far-left (aka “progressive”) candidate who will turn off the same historically Democratic voters in Blue states who voted for Trump in 2016.

    #1661707

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “the question is, where does voting for a candidate who happens to be an oveid a”z fit in?”

    That would be the question. I don’t think the situation has ever presented itself in history. It could potentially give a boost to Hinduism in the US.

    “Why are you a Democrat?”
    I never said anything about who I would vote for in the general. Do you prefer to register in such a way that you disenfranchise yourself just so that you can tout that you’re “a republican?”

    #1661747

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Do you prefer to register in such a way that you disenfranchise yourself just so that you can tout that you’re “a republican?””

    4 out of the last 6 NYC mayoral elections were won by the Republican nominee and lost by the Democrat. What exactly are you disenfranchised from by being a registered Republican?

    #1661898

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “What exactly are you disenfranchised from by being a registered Republican?”
    It means you can’t vote in Democratic primaries. There will be no Republican primary next presidential cycle, so if you don’t reregister, you will have to sit and watch from the sidelines (unless your state allows you to vote in either primary). What on earth do the mayoral elections of NYC have to do with anything? Are you not allowed to vote differently than how you’re registered in them?

    Gadol: Probably the most reasonable comment I’ve ever seen from you in CR history. You probably noticed that the usual far-left media suspects started running hit pieces on Gabbard as soon as she announced. They haven’t clearly anointed a primary candidate yet because they’re all too busy drooling over Ocasio-Cortez still, but my guess is that it will be Warren and we’ll have a total repeat of 2016: barely any primary debates, a super-delegate controversy, biased media coverage, etc.

    #1662014

    Joseph
    Participant

    Neville: You reregister to the opposing party of the president before re-election, every alternative cycle, in order to vote in their primary since the president’s party obviously won’t have a primary against the president? So in 2012 you were a registered Republican since the Democrats had no primary?

    In most states you can only vote in the primary of your party.

    #1662652

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “You reregister to the opposing party of the president before re-election, every alternative cycle, in order to vote in their primary since the president’s party obviously won’t have a primary against the president?”

    Correct. Many people do it. Some people also purposely stay registered in the party opposite to their hashkafa for various ulterior motives. Some people, for example, might purposely vote for the weakest democrat because all they care about is Republican victory; I don’t personally agree with that technique. Didn’t a YWN article say that something like 60% of Simcha Felder’s district is registered as dem even though most of them voted Trump?

    #1662657

    Joseph
    Participant

    Neville: To which party are you registered when there’s no incumbent president running for re-election? Like in 2016.

    #1662681

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    There was still clearly a bigger inyan in voting in one of the 2016 primaries than the other, even without an incumbent running for re-election. So, the answer is Republican, in my case.

    That’s just me, however. Everyone has their reasons to register one way or another. I think it’s still possible to pick out a favorite candidate from the “other” party, even if you don’t agree with their core principles.

    #1662713

    Joseph
    Participant

    I hear your mehalech, Neville. I don’t disagree with it as I find it has a valid benefit. Indeed at one time I daydreamed about doing something similar. But, as a matter of principal, I could never allow myself to become a registered Democrat. And regarding the benefit of following your approach I decided it was rather very small. Since exceedingly rarely is a primary determined by a single vote. And even culmatively the number of folks doing what you do is very very small. It is less than a niche.

    #1663472

    casper
    Participant

    “Eastern religion is, however, a problem according to everyone.”
    What?
    Are you saying I should cast my vote on the basis of someone’s ethnicity? Isn’t that, like, what being a racist is? I will vote for whoever’s policies and personality I support the most. Their religion has nothing to do with it.

    #1663482

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Are you saying I should cast my vote on the basis of someone’s ethnicity?

    No.

    He’s asking (not saying) whether it’s assur to vote for someone who is an oved avodah zarah (regardless of ethnicity).

    #1663489

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Why hasn’t this come up when different types of Christians ran for president? Also, may one vote for an autotheist?

    #1663492

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The BJP in India which is the Hindu party is actually good friends with Israel

    #1663511

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Isn’t that, like, what being a racist is?”
    If the Torah told you that you couldn’t do business with someone based on their ethnicity, would you go off the derech because it would be “what being a racist is?”

    Like it or not, there are restrictions when it comes to dealing with idol worshipers, and eastern religion is unambiguous avodah zara. The halachah really doesn’t care how well it meshes with 21st century, progressive sentimentality.

    On a side note, as far as ethnicity is concerned, I believe Gabbard is a convert (not that there’s such thing as a Hindu race anyway).

    #1664052

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “The BJP in India which is the Hindu party is actually good friends with Israel”
    The Hindus and Buddhists consistently come back with the lowest rates of Antisemitism out of any religious group in the world (including Atheists) according to the ADL. It’s a shame they have to bow to idols.

    “Why hasn’t this come up when different types of Christians ran for president? ”
    Because, so far, no candidate has ever practiced a form of Christianity that is A”Z gamor even for goyim (i.e. bows down and/or burns food offerings to statues etc.).

    #1664143

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Rambam says Christianity is A”Z mamish. And Islam is not A”Z.

    #1664180

    funnybone
    Participant

    I dont get it. Why would it be an issue if a president os oved a”z?

    #1664215

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @joseph But I believe it was the RAMA who says it’s not. I’ve heard a shitta that it depends on how you interpret the concept of “Trinity” and how the particular Christians in your day, place, and age consider it. Christians that the RAMBAM was familiar with mamish worshiped a man as a god. Other Christians (and Muslims) treated him as a prophet.

    #1664284

    Avi K
    Participant

    Yserbius, not to mention the Unitarians. In any case, I do not think that Xtians who are not theologians really think about it. They believe in one God but consider Yushki to be their savior. That is how they always refer to him. There was an irreverent saying that “Jesus saves but Espo (hockey player Phil Esposito) shoots in the rebound”.

    #1664313

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Theoretically it could be a machlokes. However, the point with the Rambam and pikuach nefesh with regards to converting is obviously talking about A”Z for Yidden, not goyim. We do, I believe, posken that you would be over on A”Z as a Jew if you converted to Christianity.

    Even if the Rambam did mean it for goyim, then apparently we don’t posken that way. If we did, it would be assur to do business with Christians in close proximity to their holidays (I can’t remember exactly how many days the gezeira is), which would probably include every Sunday. I believe I also read that it’s mutar to sell candles or some such thing to goyim even if you know he might use it for Christianity. If the practice was assur even by the sheva mitzvos b’nei Noach, then it would presumably be lifnei iver to do so just like selling eiver min hachai to a goy.

    For the topic of the OP, there have obviously been times where the Jews had to pay taxes to governments run by idolaters. Even right now, Gabbard is a public official so some of our tax money might be going to her salary, which is being used to fund avodah zara. Apparently it’s not a problem. My question is, is it so mutar that you can even knowingly put yourself in that situation by helping elect an oved A”Z?

    #1664335

    jackk
    Participant

    Avi K,,

    They believe that he is both ” lord and savior”. They repeat this phrase all the time.

    #1664896

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “They believe that he is both ” lord and savior”. They repeat this phrase all the time.”
    It’s true. That’s a point Jews don’t make often enough when talking about Christianity. If it were just a matter of having a different set of prophets for the same god, they would have the same status as Islam.

    To Avi’s credit, he’s right that run-of-the-mill Christians don’t think about it. If they did, the religion probably wouldn’t exist anymore. It’s entirely based on contradiction.

    #1665197

    Avi K
    Participant

    Neville,
    1. Everyone agrees that there is an obligation to pay taxes.
    2. “Lord” simply means “master”. Even capitalizing it only means that it is a title.

    #1665295

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Avi, I have no idea what you’re trying to reply to. I never said anyone shouldn’t pay taxes. I’m also not really sure why you’re so intent on defending Christianity. Their claim that they’re true monotheists who don’t view their guy as a demigod is about as useful as Muslim’s claim that Islam is a “religion of peace.”

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