May 11, 2011 12:31 am at 12:31 am #596816HIEParticipant
Should someone make a living or go to kollel and rely on the one above.May 11, 2011 12:46 am at 12:46 am #766331☕️coffee addictParticipant
I hope you know the gemara about thatMay 11, 2011 12:48 am at 12:48 am #766332BUBBLEParticipant
Go earn a living and learn in your spare time. Going to Kollel and relying on the one above aka your parents or inlaws is not erhliche learning.
What do you do on Shabbos afternoon Chol HAmoed and other times when you are free,, that constitutes a “learning boy”.May 11, 2011 12:54 am at 12:54 am #766333HermioneMember
that is a very controversial subject I think someone should make the choice for what is best for them.May 11, 2011 12:55 am at 12:55 am #766334RABBAIMParticipant
Learn Chovos Halevavos Shaar Habitachon carefully and happily and you will have your answer. Nobody but you can answer a question which must be at least partially based on your level of real Bitachon. Learn it and you will know exactly what I mean.May 11, 2011 1:10 am at 1:10 am #766335GumBallMember
Yes I think so to Hermione if you know your parents or anyone cant support you then youll need to go to work…and in your free time lk mornings,nights in between meetings….youll learn….May 11, 2011 1:13 am at 1:13 am #766336Working on itParticipant
What happened to becoming an OT?May 11, 2011 1:38 am at 1:38 am #766337double standardMember
I think when you go to make a living you also have to rely on the One Above.May 11, 2011 2:05 am at 2:05 am #766339bombmaniacParticipant
are you on the level of emuna and bitachon to truly believe and understand that hashem is teh source of all parnassah and that whether you work or not its up to him and no one else? if yes then i commend you and i wish you hatzlacha in kolel, if not…get a job and learn when you can.May 11, 2011 2:09 am at 2:09 am #766340TikkunHatzotMember
HIE, I used to live in a modern-orthodox community where most of the community believed that you should earn a living & then learn in your spare time.
I wish not to give details about the community other than there was very little Torah learning, even during people’s “spare time”…saying “earn a living & learn in free time” sounds great in theory, but in practice it rarely happens.May 11, 2011 2:24 am at 2:24 am #766341emlfMember
In the biography of Rav Sholom Schwadron zt”l, translated by Libby Lazewnik, I read something that has stayed with me all these years. I don’t have the sefer so I can’t quote it, but the idea was basically: don’t define yourself by your job. A Yid is an ovaid HaShem, a Yid learns, a Yid does mitzvos. The job that you do is what you DO; it doesn’t define who you are.
So, even if you’re working, work with an attitude of, “I learn! For parnosa, I do such and such.” Treat the work as a tafel, even if it takes up more of your day than learning.
If anyone has the sefer and could quote the section that I’m referring to, that would be nice . . .May 11, 2011 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #766342
rely on the one above.
Next time, when you’re referring to HKBH, capitalize (i.e. the One Above). It’s considered proper respect.
The WolfMay 11, 2011 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #766343AinOhdMilvadoParticipant
All those laws in our Torah haKedosha about shichka, pey’ah, teruma, karbanos, shmitta, etc., etc., etc. —
WHO grew all those crops?
WHO raised all those animals?
Full time kollel guys?
Yes, if one is an ilui, if one is that guy who is maybe one in a thousand who has it in him to possibly REALLY be a gadol ha’dor, then YES, definitely go learn full time.
If not – be kovay’ah eeteem for learning, and go to work.
That IS the way for a Torah society to function.May 11, 2011 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #766344double standardMember
Wolf: I already posted that (though I was more discrete with my rebuke). And if you truly feel it is an issue, you should not be quoting it in lowercase either.May 11, 2011 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #766345
Wolf: I already posted that (though I was more discrete with my rebuke).
My apologies. I failed to notice that.
And if you truly feel it is an issue, you should not be quoting it in lowercase either.
I disagree. In the interest of clarity (I have no idea if HIE will even remember his OP), I *always* quote what I’m responding to. In this case, IMHO, it’s necessary so that he can see what it was I was objecting to.
That’s just my opinion. You are, of course, free to disagree with me if you wish.
The WolfMay 11, 2011 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #766347Shticky GuyParticipant
should someone make a living or go to kollel and rely on the one above
Should someone go to kollel or make a living and rely on the One Above?
capitalize it. It’s considered proper respect
as in The WolfMay 11, 2011 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #766348
as in The Wolf
My apologies. I do not mean to imply in any way that I am a deity.
the wolfMay 11, 2011 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #766349aries2756Participant
HIE, everyone has their own opinions about this and it is wrong to ask anyone what their opinions are. The only opinions that count in this matter is yours and that of your spouse; as well as those who you expect to support you if you choose to learn.May 11, 2011 11:25 pm at 11:25 pm #766350
AniOd-“Yes, if one is an ilui, if one is that guy who is maybe one in a thousand who has it in him to possibly REALLY be a gadol ha’dor, then YES, definitely go learn full time.
If not – be kovay’ah eeteem for learning, and go to work.”
and by this you mean if you wont become something major in learning than dont “waste your time”-go out and work?? ilui or not Talmud Torah is for EVERYONE. why shouldnt someone learn full time even if hes not an ilui? he’ll be doing alot more good for this world by learning the whole day than by going out to work…May 12, 2011 12:39 am at 12:39 am #766351RSRHMember
stuffedcabbage: AniOd is right! If you truly have a great mind, analytical abilities, writing and speaking skills, by all means, spend your life learning and teaching Torah. I will be the first person on line to support you. But if you don’t have these extraordinary abilities, go learn a profession and make a living doing something that your natural talents make you suited to excel at. Be koveah itim yom v’layla. But don’t just learn Torah; live Torah! Show your coworkers, partners, clients, and employers what a Torah life looks like.
God has given us all unique and particular talents which we must use in our professional capacities to be mekadesh Hashem and enlighten the Jewish people and the world as to what Torah life is all about. For those of us whose natural abilities warrant a Torah profession (toraso umnaso), they should go and study for their proffesional lives, and then practice their profession by writing, teaching, lecturing, and serving the k’hilah’s Torah needs. Those whose natural talents do not lend themselves to a profesional career in Torah ought to do something that maximizes their potential and fully utilized the gifts God gave them for the benefit of others – whether as doctors, lawyers, teachers, plumbers, mechanics, architects, programmers, or academics.May 12, 2011 2:08 am at 2:08 am #766352Kshmo Kein HuMember
Why is everyone losing sight of the fact that learning Torah is the most vital component for the perpetuation of this world (I can start with sources if anyone objects), and that if the boys of today are being encouraged to extend their years in kolell, what audacity it is that most of you are writing it off as something only very few should be doing, as it is not the way for a ‘Torah Society to function.’
Um, if thats the way it has started to function then why take that nachas away from Hashem. I think we owe G-d more than to discourage his children from learning His Torah as long as possible.May 12, 2011 3:52 am at 3:52 am #766353
itsys that torah learning IS the best thing you can do. better than having a “proffessional life” and “showing your coworkers what a torah life looks like” and torah life is sitting a learning torah too. and btw its better to use your talents then to learn torah? like if someone can play a instrument he should do that rather than leanr torah? explain please….May 12, 2011 7:22 am at 7:22 am #766354hanibParticipant
(both are right, depending on who you are).May 12, 2011 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #766355RSRHMember
Certainly! I would hope that a young person with a talent for music would become a truly professional musician and composer. Such a person, guided by halacha could show the larger musical community that good music need not be injected with sensual overtones and imagery that glorifies violence, infidelity, promiscuity, and debased human behavior. He could demonstrate and exemplify that music can be used to inspire man’s soul to do good, to feel for other, ect. I would hope that someone with a talent for and natural inclination towards medicine would become a doctor or medical researcher. Guided by halacha, he could use his position as a platform to show his patients, fellow doctors, and the larger medical community how medicine ought to be practiced, recognizing God’s incomprehensible fashioning of the human body and the natural biological and chemical world. The same is true for artists, architects, fashion designers, lawyers, accountants, businessmen, philosophers, mathematicians, engineers, farmers, truck drivers, ect.
We exist not for ourselves, or to satisfy our own desire to learn by sitting in kollel and learning without offering any tangible contribution to our communities and the larger world around us. We exist to be mekadesh shem shamayim, to demonstrate through our adherence to Torah law in every aspect of our multifaceted lives that mankind can and should strive for perfection in every area of human endeavor guided by God’s law. God has given each of us a unique abilioty and disposition so that we may fulfill this task within our own small sphere – whether in the law office, medical practice, college classroom, accounting firm, trading floor, or rav’s office.
We would all do well to perform an honest cheshbon hanefesh, by evaluating our personal abilities, inclinations and character. We would do well to strive to fulfill the particular task that it seems God outfitted us for. How haughty and self-absorbed would we be to discount the way God made us and try to become something we are not, cannot, and should not be. The simple truth is, we are not all suited to be rabbonim, poskim, dayanim, and teachers of Torah. Some are suited to such positions, but most are not. While we must all learn in order to live our lives as God would have us do (lilmod as minas laasos), 90% of us are likely erring dreadfully to believe we must not live our lives in order that we may learn.
I don’t suppose we will ever agree on this. For you, the act of learning Torah is the best thing one can ever do, and it takes precedence over all other obligations. For me, learning is a never-ending journey to discover how God wants us to conduct our earthly lives; we cannot live properly if we do not learn how to do so, but we can also not live properly if all we do is learn how to do so.May 12, 2011 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #766356
if every jewish person on this world would only learn we would not be on this world because there would be no way to live in a world like today where you need money for every step of the way. for instance..rent tuition food clothes yom tov, shabbas, simchos,…..so SOMEBODY has to work and provide. hoo shud that be??? even if woman goes to work eventually she will need help between children and providing for so many people..so yes if there is no money the husband must go out to make money…May 13, 2011 1:45 am at 1:45 am #766358tomim tihyeMember
What’s pshat popa’s name is up and posts are not?
I feel very deprived as I come here mainly for the laughs!May 13, 2011 2:40 am at 2:40 am #766359charliehallParticipant
“make a living or go to kollel and rely on the one above”
Uh, we all have to rely on the One Above for our living.
“I can start with sources if anyone objects”
And anyone who objects can cite Rambam. (Hilchot Talmud Torah 3:10.)May 13, 2011 2:40 am at 2:40 am #766360charliehallParticipant
“WHO grew all those crops?”
The way to fulfil the most mitzvot for which you are chayev is to be a farmer in Eretz Yisrael, NOT to learn Torah full time.May 13, 2011 3:49 am at 3:49 am #7663611dayParticipant
google it.May 13, 2011 3:53 am at 3:53 am #766362manohmanMember
The way to fulfil the most mitzvot for which you are chayev is to be a farmer in Eretz Yisrael, NOT to learn Torah full time.
Perhaps. On the other hand, the purpose of life is to do what Hashem wants, not to collect the most number of mitzvos. We know what Hashem wants from the torah, the written and oral torah. The Oral torah is transmitted through the mesorah. That is why we need to listen to our rebbeim.May 13, 2011 4:13 am at 4:13 am #766363
RSRH-so your saying that learning Torah is not so important rather its more important to use your talents? so then why does it say “VeTalmud Torah Keneged Kulam”? for nothing?
“We exist not for ourselves, or to satisfy our own desire to learn by sitting in kollel and learning without offering any tangible contribution to our communities and the larger world around us.”
by sitting and learning your offering the world ALOT MORE-more than anything tangible you might be able to contribute….
“The simple truth is, we are not all suited to be rabbonim, poskim, dayanim, and teachers of Torah.”
we would have had a LOT less Gedolim and Tzaddikim in this world had they all said that they “weren’t cut out for learning” who is anyone to decide that their not “cut out” for it?? how do you know that if an average person of average inteligence would sit and toil in Torah he wouldnt become the next Gadol Hador?
“For you, the act of learning Torah is the best thing one can ever do, and it takes precedence over all other obligations. For me, learning is a never-ending journey to discover how God wants us to conduct our earthly lives;”
do we follow diferent Torahs? just curious…..May 13, 2011 4:39 am at 4:39 am #766364yummy cupcakeMember
how come on a few threads, popas posts come out blank?
OP, why not ask ur rav his opinion/the halacha?May 13, 2011 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #766365
1day..ur comments are short and to the point..thank you..everyone can learn..they will..1 dayyyyyy 1 dayyyyyyyy 1 dayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy….hah this is way too funny..lolMay 13, 2011 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #7663661dayParticipant
hey hey hey, Even when we work we are relying on the one above!May 13, 2011 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #766367
hey hey i kno.. my name is BELIEVER….LOL never forget that…
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