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I am new in the parshah scene. My 19 year old girl is just starting to date. We are being asked to show a picture of my daughter to the boy and his family before they give an answer. Is this the norm today. I dont mind the shadchan having a picture if they dont know the girl so they could describe what she looks like to the boy. Also why cant a girl see a picture of the boy. Is it me or is there something wrong with the system? Dont get me wrong my daughter has nothing to hide she is pretty and thin and put together but I feel if the boy sees a picture before going out he will get an idea of what type of girl she is and it might not be so. Could one photo tell all about a person and what they are like?
I’m against the boys seeing pictures before they go out. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, and it is very subjective. Therefore, to make that judgement based on a picture is not being fair to both the bochur and the girl.
If it were my daughter, I would say no to a bochur who wants to see her picture first. I understand that there are some bochurim who have been “burned”, when people told them “oh, she’s sooo pretty” etc. But too bad. In the circles that I am in, this is not something I would consider as ok. I would want him to ask about her middos, personality, hashkofa, ideals, and goals in life, and see if those things seem to be compatible, before deciding on going out.
I highly doubt that one photo could give all the information they need–even what they really look like.
Hatzlocha to your daughter, and may the process of shidduchim be pleasant and short for both of you.
I have mixed feelings on this, in one case I agreed to go out with a girl before I saw pictures of her and then I saw some pictures before the first date and it made me a lot less excited to go on the date. When I actually saw her in person I wasn’t even sure she was the same person, she was so much better looking, it was just a bad picture. On the other hand the last girl I went out with did not provide a picture, and if she had I might have saved her time and feelings by not going out in the first place.
In general if you don’t provide a picture it will be assumed that there is something you’re trying to hide. I’m not saying that it’s fair and maybe the system should be changed but you probably shouldn’t try to change it by yourself b/c it could hurt your daughter in the meantime.
My mother is in the parsha of shidduchim too and I know from her and from lots of others that this is a very normal thing to do. If it is right or not is a totally different story because a picture is so deceiving. I saw plenty of pictures of girls and in real life they are so different. If the boys family is not from your place its understandable that they would want to see a picture before they fly in. If not they should just step into a wedding that your daughter is attending and give a peek at her without her even knowing. real life image is always better.
At first, I’d say it should be a 2-way street however you bring up a point that the picture may cause too much prejudgment to take place and you are not giving the other person a fair chance.
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Some shadchanim ask for a picture. The purpose for the picture is NOT to show it to the boy. The purpose is to refresh their memory once they met you, so the girl will be a person not a resume.
I say give a picture, at least you can send a very nice one and not risk them somehow getting a hold of a picture of the girl that is not flattering. Just because they want a pic doesn’t mean that it’s the only thing they care about.
Photo, no. In person meeting, yes. In fact, I would not deal with a shadchan who does not want to take the time to meet my boys.
Of course, you cannot judge a person from a 10 minute meeting, but you can tell a whole lot more from a face-to-face than you can from a photo. The stance, the handshake, the eye contact, the “ganze geshtel” (sorry, there’s no good english word for that)
“I say give a picture, at least you can send a very nice one and not risk them somehow getting a hold of a picture of the girl that is not flattering.”
I definitely agree with that, from the guys point of view I like to see a picture so I know there’s a possibility that she’s attractive. It doesn’t have to be a professional photo shoot, but it should give an idea of what she looks like. Also if your daughter has a facebook account make sure that she doesn’t have unflattering pictures of her on there, it’s amazing what people put up, even with good intentions.
It’s inappropriate. A shadchan can ask for a picture for reference reasons, but a boy’s mom shouldn’t be asking for a picture.
hilary18;
This is a very complicated matter. There are many factors to consider.
Firstly though, if the boy wants a picture of the girl, he should provide
a picture of himself too. If not, too bad! The girls is to get a preview
just as much as the boy is. He has no right over her.
Now, having said that, the main reason for this picture phenomenon,
originally, is for boy who has to travel out of town for a girl.
Which is an inconvenience, if it turns out that her looks aren’t to his satisfaction. This could’ve been avoided simply by looking at a picture of her.
Problem
1)
There are some people who are not photogenic.
They may have a major Chein, that just doesn’t register in a photo.
2)There are also those who photograph well, though the friend redting the shidduch
may have a bad photo of the girl. like eating salad, her mouth half open,
which she thinks is cute, but you don’t. or a pic taking when she was yawning or blinking, which may make her look insane, though she isn’t.
3)It could also be of when she was in high school and wasn’t so into her hair etc..
Though now, a year later, she looks like a different person.
So you really generally, can’t judge by a picture!!!
I am an expert at getting a good idea of a person physically, from a picture,
I even once told the shadchan that the girl was too tall based
on a photo of her sitting down alone. Though he promised she wasn’t over
5’10, I ended up being right, as I later found. On the date It was like deja vu.
Then I remembered my visit to the safari and i calmed down.
Though I must admit, there were times I was pleasantly surprised,
even after seeing a photo and being very doubtful.
So I suggest,(with serious experience in this matter) to anybody in the parsha,
if you want to see a photo, use it just to get a general idea,
and decide to give them a chance in person, no matter what.
Except for instance if you are slim looking for a slim mate,
and the photo reveals that the person is totally the opposite of that,
then it is fair to say, it is not what you are looking for.
Or vice versa.
I think both sides should give/show a picture before agreeing to go out. Doing so, will save a guy and/or girl’s time, money, and feelings.
I do not like photos of either party. Some people photograph poorly, and some look WAY better in a photo than in person. It is a subjective matter, and no one should have a preconception. Just my opinion.
Most of the time it is the boy’s MOTHER who wants to see the picture. I agree with the rav who told you if the boy won’t go out without seeing a picture, then he is not for her. Not giving a photo does not mean someone has something to hide. Much can be hidden in a really good photo. It is demeaning under normal circumstances. Only exception – if the boy or girl will be travelling a great distance, across the country or out of the country, to meet each other. Then an exchange of photos is a reasonable request for BOTH parties.
these days shidduchim are based on papers!! it’s between this paper and that paper.. people turned into 2d text! at least a picture gives the girls some life and ur making ur decision based on a person..
Kol Hakavod hilary18-It is always encouraging to hear how people go to their Rov for hadrocha. A talmid chochom and daas Torah is such a brocha-especially in the parsha of shidduchim.
May you be zoche to go through the process quickly and pleasantly, and have many simchos to celebrate.
From http://www.shidduchworld.org from:Q&A
If you are a registered user, you may request a picture of a specific person. Shidduch World will then forward your request to the other side. If they agree, we will forward their picture to you.
Sometimes a picture is more than 1000 words but to base your decision on a picture might be wrong.
Well, I am not exactly excited about the way shidduchim are made altogether, because you are right. It feels as though it is more of a line by line comparison of resumes (what is this anyway – a job interview?)to see which candidate is more qualified. In the olden shidduch days, if someone had an idea of a shidduch, they went to the matchmaker (and sometimes only the two fathers hashed it out together), and a name was suggested to the other party. No one looked at papers, no one asked for pictures, and the couple met each other and it was a shidduch or it was not. So we live in modern times now, but have we really improved the process? I am inclined to think, NOT so much.
If the boy (or his mother) wants a picture, then the boy’s family should be willing to provide a picture for the girl.
Some boys are really not “put together” and some of them are – well – overweight. I was trying to red a shidduch to a bochur who was so overweight his stomach stuck out over his belt, and all he could ask was, “Is she really skinny?” The girl has just as much a right to look for a “skinny” guy as the guys have to look for a “skinny” girl. In fact, giving the risk of heart attacks for overweight guys, she may have more of a right, since she would ch”v be the one left a widow to bring up the kids.
The shidduch scene has gotten really strange in the last ten years. Can’t we come up with better solutions?
“The shidduch scene has gotten really strange in the last ten years. Can’t we come up with better solutions”
Yes, we can, but no one is willing to hear them. They are too radical, i.e. (gasp!) allowing boys and girls to meet each other at fun get-togethers (NOT shiurim, and not overseen by a Rov)and not going through shadchanim. Allowing boys and girls (even more of a gasp!) to actually talk to each other from the time they are little kids, through their adolescence, through adulthood, is even better, because it ensures that both sides learn how to socially interact comfortably and not awkwardly, in a normal way.
Dear O’omis:
Your response makes too much sense to ever be adopted. Better to declare a crisis and mobilize the professionals and the community, and spend a lot of money.
I disagree oomis. allowing boys and girls to interact in a “fun get-togethers” at an young age is detrimental! lets not fool ourselves and believe that kids are capable of exercising self control without supervision. you paint a picture where interaction between boys and girls from young age will lead to better dating experience and marriage success…I beg to differ! looking back at my High School experience, the girls who had “boyfriends” or talked to guys on a steady basis developed either low self esteem because they depended on the boy’s value judgement of whether they were “cool enough” or “pretty” or “awesome” ect. and those who didn’t have low self esteem and were confident enough about themselves developed this gaming attitude where you make the boy like you by playing games, like being unreachable and talking to the other boy to make first boy more interested…ect. now some of you might be thinking, oh this is probably one of those modern high schools or s/thing…NO! this happened and happens in our local bais yaakovs! MY POINT: girls and boys at a young age DO NOT know what is appropriate or not because they have not developed sensitivities in tznius yet. you can’t expect a 15 year old to be as sensitive to tznius as one whose 20 who just returned from sem and learned the value of real dating and building a Jewish home, not just having “fun” with a boy!
same goes for a boy, you can’t expect them (with a boy’s mind) to keep things “clean” at this age, their yetzer hara is too strong!! they have not learnt yet enough to have self control and know the real value of building a Jewish home!
Do you know how many Yichud issues come up??!! children are children…u can’t expect them to act like adults and have an adult interaction!
Im speaking from expereince because I had friends and classmates who succumbed to this…what started as an innocent interaction with a boy lead a frum girl do serious averos!! what started off as FB friend lead to emotional damage and low self esteem in others….
So I bet your going to say that it doesn’t have to be this way, and that there can be interactions that wont’ lead to this…well then you do need it to be “overseen by a Rov”, because without authority or supervision, these pp get lose and it pulls away the best and the finest from yeshivos and bais yaakovs…
A boy should not have girls in his head when he’s learning, a boy should not have girls numbers on his cell phone or have FB girl friends…it leads to taivos, leads to averos…and these “fun get togethers” will just encourage that.
I can’t say I have a real solution to the shidduch crisis but if everyone in coffee room claims that today boys and girls are marrying too young, or too young to date…well are they suddenly adult enought to know how to control themselves when they are merely in high school?! I don’t think so.
Potsandpans
A boy is supposed to like girls and a girl is supposed to like boys whether or not his head is in the gemarah. Period. That is how Hashem created us. That is why we are supposed to get married to someone who we are physically attracted to.
If a particular boy or girl wants to go out with someone at a young age the parents should allow it as long as it will lead to marriage.
“I do, however, have one suggestion before we implement yours”
My “suggestion” was the way things were always done when I was growing up. We lived a wholesome, healthy socially and halachically acceptable lifestyle, and I had friends of both genders. I was never afraid to talk to a boy on a date or any other time. I also did not feel pressured to think that every date was “the ONE” so that I could not relax and enjoy getting to know the person with whom I was on a date.
You infantilize kids, potsandpans, when you say they are not capable of exercising self-control. That may be true in an environment such as today when they feel like kids let loose in a candy store when they are around other genders. That is what happens when boys and girls are treated as mysteries to each other. I was a kid, once, too, beleive it or not, and my parents raised me to be both tzniusdik and a conversationalist who was comfortable speaking with virtually anyone.EVERYONE is capable of exercising self-control, but they must be given some tools to develop that control. That is what good chinuch in school and parental reinforcement at home are supposed to be, no?
Don’t equate a girl having a boyfriend with her having low self-esteem. That may or may not be true, but IMO it is a frivolous and unfair statement. The kids whom you believe have no knowledge of what is appropriate or not, are possibly that way because they are not permitted to act appropriately with each other. You learn social graces by example, and by utilizing them in social settings. Do kids automatically learn how to eat without talking with a mouth full of food, if no one sits them down at a dinner table and teaches them good manners? I know that the Bais Yaakov (or Yeshivah of your choice) mentality dictates a certain frum lifestyle, but that lifestyle is ultimately ironically causing problems with many children who are not learning how to relate to each other in a frum but also healthy and proper way. I am certain you will disagree with me, and I am not trying to change your mind, because we both know that will not happen. But if you try to be a little objective, you may possibly see SOME merit in what I say, even if you reject it.
potsandpans; Bravo!!!!! I must thank you profusely for your last post.
It’s about time someone told it as it is. I’m sick and tired of all these
liberal, warped, distortion of reality that some people insist is the truth.
If any of you would know of the current damage this liberal idea of let the boys
hang out with the girls and form healthy (yeah right!) realationships with the girls etc.. has wreaked on our younger generation of girls and boys.
HELLO People! Boys, immature as they are, will manipulate the girls, immature and insecure as they tend be, especially when they are younger. The boys manipulate
them to get waht they want, leaving them broken, insecure, and scarred, for life
which will lead to even bigger problems down the line unfortunately.
If you dont know what is going on now with a large number our youth,
due to liberal parents not educating their kids and preparing their kids,
letting young teenagers run loose, meet whoever, whatever, wherever. etc..
Hashem Yeracheim. Have some common sense people, PLEASE!!!
mybat…”parents should allow it as long as it will lead to marriage”…the second i read that line i right away thought of What will Rabbi Walerstein say about this??!!for those who don’t know, Rabbi Walerstein has been involved in Kiruv rechokim and kerovim for over 10 years, he has more experience than, I dare say, many of us on CR!
In a recent Shiur discussing boys and girls hanging out without supervision, he described how many girls and boys that he personally knows who came from good homes and are now not shomer negia, who are not following hilchos yichud, all because they feel like they “loooove” the other person and they will “for sure” marry that girl/boy one day!
though I cannot remember the exact numbers…but he said that out of 30 weddings where he was mesader kidushin, i think it was 27 of them where the couple were not shomer negia, and out of 27, only ONE COUPLE were not shomer with eachother. meaning, that the other couples had many girlfriends and boyfriends whom they have not been shomer with AND they did not marry those pp…they married other pp….so that rationalization that “it will lead to marriage” doesn’t stand.
Now I know I specifically discuss shomer negia and not the general subject of “fun get togethers” because just like Rabbi Walerstein, I can see as well that when boys and girls hang, they let their guards down and it can invitably reach not being shomer negia or being careful with hilchos yichud! This is coming from a Rabbi whose been there for these children, and can tell you how boys would go up to girls and ask rides to go “daven mincha”…just to manipulate the girls to let them into the car…or boy telling girl that tis okay not to be shomer negia cuz he heard a “rov” say that if you wear gloves its okay…bottom line, their yetzer hara is strong and they’ll do anything to satisfy taavos…lets not encourage that!
and if we’r talking about girls/boys hanging together for many years in hopes that it will lead to marriage, well i can think of at least 3 pp just off hand who dated their boyfriend for 3 YEARS…and relationship broke off! i asked one of them what lesson she took from whole experience and she said ” there’s no reason why we were hanging out in high school…waste of time, we were young, it was fun, though was clean, but when we got older and life started hitting us and we realized what getting married means, then we started having problems and realizing we’r not even suitable as a husband and wife”…..so ya, what was the point of being friends for 3years?!
and looking back to highschool( really only a few years ago) I can say that of the girls who had boyfriends….NONE of them dated them seriously at marriagable age, none of them got married to them….all it did was give many girls and boys heartache!!
now oomis1105, your gona blame the chinuch system, shidduch system, parents, mothers, bubbes, zeidies, neighbors, yentas….and you may be right…but u paint a very unrealistic world where everything needs to be readjusted and changed inorder to make these “get togethers” a kosher possiblity!!
u write “That may be true in an environment such as today when they feel like kids let loose in a candy store when they are around other genders”. well thats what im addressing, from a realistic point of view that in today’s world ( not last generation, not generation of the bais hamikdash….but today) this is the case and to say that a very realistic possible solution is to encourage “fun get togethers” is turning blindly to what you urself see as happening.
Now, if Chazal themselves quote how the yetzer Hara is soo strong, and I had rabbanim as seminary teachers telling us “girls u dont’ understand, a boys’ Yetzer Hara is incredible when they see a girl”….then it isn’t my humble opinion about boys at young age not having the self discipline…they are not physically, mentally, emotionally ready at a high school age!! u can teach them, coach them and refine them, but maturity comes with age and life experience, not necessarily by learning social protocols.
Also, I feel like I have to say this as well…oomis you also paint a world where girls and boys are soooo oblivious about eachother…but many boys and girls have siblings in opposite gender, they have boy cousins and relatives whom they bump into family chanuka parties and family simchas…pp are not as naive as you make them!
I myself attended chanuka parties where I had chassidishe boy cousins show up and espeically because it was a “supervised” party where e/body’s parents and grandparents were present that e/o felt comforable interacting with eachother. and yes, my boy cousins would make conversation with me as well…very normal, pleasant, non intrusive conversations! so if anything i would encourage supervision during such get together!
As someone who has brothers and boy cousins, I never felt like I didnt “get” how boys think or not think…and if there was s/t i was unclear about, my date would explain to me. I never pictured my dates showing up in white horses and who knows what, or expect them to read off shas for me before we begin talking…
I never had an issue speaking to a boy on a date because we had common things to discuss like “eretz yisroel, yeshiva, seminary, goals in life, hobbies ect” unlike in high school, ALL that girls discussed with boys was MOVIES and Goyshe music, I have never heard a girl say she discussed Shwekey with a boy!!
and I do not personally feel like I needed any boy interaction in my high school years, if anything as I have said before, I have seen only destructive things come out of that!
potsandpans:
Very long post, and you make some valid points.
However, I will tend to agree with Oomis on this point.
You are correct that most relationships in high school do not culminate in marriage. Most of the time, it is broken off because the couple was dating for fun and to be cool, not for marriage. However, that is expected when dating at such an age. Most of the kids do not realize what life is actually about.
However, what I believe Oomis is getting to is more the social aspect. Kids, when dating and interacting with their social opposites when they are younger, learn life experiences and how to deal with the opposite gender better than when they are starting at a later age. IMO, You can not gain this experience talking to your cousins and brothers/sisters. When was the last time you took a sibling or cousin on a date? You interact differently with family than you do with someone you might plan on marrying/dating.
Furthermore, I would like to point out that you might agree with Oomis. You said that the boys/girls are not mature enough when they are younger to get together at social events. What I got from your post is that after seminary/yeshivah the boys/girls WILL be mature enough to go to social events that are not chaperoned by a Rav or is not a shiur.
You mentioned that you dated boys so I assume you are/were in the parsha. My question to you is how many of the boys actually treated you nicely on a date. Most of the bais yackov girls I went out with complained to me that their previous dates do not show an ounce of social grace when it comes to dating. However, my MO friends all agree that the boys know how to interact and treat them with respect instead of like a piece of meat (or a an enigma).
Dating at a younger age allows boys and girls to treat each other with respect when they get older and we wont have this “shiudduch crisis” (which IMO there really isn’t one) or crazy standards from boys and girls about what they want in a spouse.
Listen to Rabbi Orlofsky’s tape on platonic relationships. Gives a straight forward, Torahdik, emesdik view on these topics.
“If you dont know what is going on now with a large number our youth,
due to liberal parents not educating their kids and preparing their kids,
letting young teenagers run loose, meet whoever, whatever, wherever. etc..
Hashem Yeracheim. Have some common sense people, PLEASE!!! “
THAT is the crux of the problem. Parents have ceased to be parents, either in their desire to be their kids’ pals, or becuase they have so much going on in their work lives, social lives, etc. that they have abdicated thier parental role. Kids are being brought up by housekeeps, some of whom do not speak English. If parents were raisning their kdis properly as mine did, they would know where their kids are, they would CARE where their kids are going and whom they spend their time. My children always brought their friends home, and we always knew to whose home they were going. If they were expected back at a certain time, that is when they came home. And if they ever gave us reason to be disappointed in them, they had to earn back our trust. And they did.
I socialized with boys all my life, at shul, in College, on Shabbatons, in camp situtations, and I NEVER saw one problem with anyone. If anyone has readjusted the world, it is the Yeshivishe system that paints a girl as “trashy” for talking to boys, and the boys as not good Yeshivah bochurim if they do not cross the street when they see a girl.
We never had a shidduch crisis (in as great proportions as we see today)until the last ten or fifteen years, and more so now than ever before. If you want to feel that the problem rests elsewhere, that is your prerogative, of course. But I suggest you read the book about the shidduch crisis, by Dr. Michael Salamon (I do not have the exact name). He is a frum therapist who has been dealing with this problem for a long time now in his practice, and I would venture a guess that he might not agree with you, either, with all due respect.
BTW, Potsandpands, you write well, and I commend you for your articulate thought process, though I clearly disagree with you. I know many Yeshivah bochurim who BARELY speak to their female siblings or acknowledge their presence when they are home, much less learn how to have a regular conversation with a potential shidduch. Whatever works for you, keep doing it, as you are obviously content, B”H. But for the many, many boys and girls who are NOT able to meet their zivugim, or are getting divorced in the shana rishona, because they barely knew each other before getting married, this clearly has become more than a crisis. It is a plague.
Jewishandworking22, you got my point exactly! (though I do disagree on the point of a crisis – as I do think we have created it ourselves).
Rabbi Orlofsky is a fabulous speaker, charismatic, funny, intelligent, and extremely worth hearing.I have not heard his tapes on platonic relationships, so I cannot comment in a relevant fashion about this, at this time.
Oomis I totally agree with you.
I REALLY must proofread before I hit “send post!” I am SO embarrassed by all those typos. I guess I was just a little excited… I do tend to get all soapbox-y on this topic, and get careless when I do.
(thanks, mybat)
lol, oomis, I was thinking the same thing about my posts! I also get very involved in my posts and so eager to click “send” that I by mistake overlook many typos and spelling mistakes! I was nervious one of those grammar “fanatics” in CR are going to proofread my whole post and make me rewrite it…
“are going to proofread my whole post and make me rewrite it… “
Please write 1,000 times, “I WILL carefully proofread my posts.”
do I have to?? I mean I can “copy and paste” the “I WILL carefully proofread my posts.” 1000 times but then I might seriously bore YW readers!
” but then I might seriously bore YW readers! “
And your point is…? (just kidding)
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