August 1, 2013 3:35 am at 3:35 am #610226pixelateMember
At the state’s inception in Palestine, Reb Elchanan Wasserman was a proponent of the idea of a Jewish state until he realized that their motive was not to find a home for Judaism, but to uproot Torah Judaism.
Given that, there was no intrinsic flaw in a Jewish State, so long as it upholds Torah Judaism.
Fast-forward to 2050:
According to population-growth statistics, by the year 2050, the supermajority of Israel will be orthodox, meaning the Prime Minister of Israel may very well be one of the Gedolei Hador. This is not a fiction. It is extremely realistic. Israeli society will be ridded of heresy and immorality, as enacted by law and enforced by the police, and Zionism and Torah would be one of the same; to defend Israel would be to defend Torah.
The fundamental reason of the weakening and weaning of Torah Judaism is our mixture with the nations of the world. Just take a peek in Tanach and any era of Jewish History. This will be gone. And the chain of the following will begin:
Torah Law>Torah violators prosecuted>near-depletion of violators>Isolation from western culture>National Torah pride>appreciation for the Workforce and armed defenders of the Torah Nation>Ultimate pride in Torah and as children of G-d>near-depletion of OTDs
If every Frum Jew made Aliyah to Israel today, that would happen much, much faster.
Is there such a vision?
And to think that this isn’t a drive for the coming of Mashiach?August 1, 2013 1:03 pm at 1:03 pm #1046088HrolfrMember
2050? I think teh arabs will outnumber jews in israel by 2020.August 1, 2013 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #1046089gavra_at_workParticipant
Is there such a vision?
And to think that this isn’t a drive for the coming of Mashiach?
No. Two Jews, Three opinions. I see some “Orthodox” groups joining with the Arabs before they would join with the hated Zionists.August 2, 2013 6:28 am at 6:28 am #1046090–Participant
Is there such a vision?
I don’t have such a vision (at least not before the arrival of Moshiach). A democracy that allows itself to become a theocracy is just setting itself up to be a despotic dictatorship.
Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
-Sir Winston ChurchillAugust 4, 2013 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #1046091mosheemes2Member
Taking your chain one step at a time here: The prosecution of Torah violators (whatever that means) will almost certainly not leas to the depletion of those violators (whatever that means). At best, laws that attempt to prohibit things people frequently do (like drug laws, as opposed to laws prohibiting murder which punish acts everyone basically agrees are wrong) at best shift equilibria for the amount of crime committed, they don’t eliminate them entirely, and even then it’s kind of iffy. The best you can hope for is that some Torah violators, by and large the most productive ones, will leave Israel as quickly as they can.
Couple that with your next step, isolation from western culture, and you’re looking at an economic collapse. It’s hard to believe that fifty years from now the world at large will be less interconnected than the current one is, so leaving the grid would make everyone in Israel a lot poorer.
Let’s say though that the State of Torah doesn’t really mind that and decides to reinvent itself as an insular agrarian state, since producing food is something that’s necessary and basically possible to do without relying too much on the outside world, assuming you solve for Israel’s water problems (and ignore that the only real models for a modern country trying to do that are North Korea and China under Mao). As a bonus, an agrarian state is something the Torah gives a pretty clear blueprint for.
The next step doesn’t follow at all. It’s hard to see the Torah State not falling into sectarian divisions pretty quickly, between Sephardim and Ashkenazim, Chassidim and Litvishers, etc. etc. etc. The Gadol HaTorah running the government could attempt to unify things, but what authority would he actually have to enforce his ruling? Are we reinstituting the Sanhedrin here? Semicha? Regardless of demographic shifts none of those things are going to get done with creating even more crippling sectarian divisions.
So what you’ve got is effectively a smallish, poor, agrarian state where the communities tolerate each other to various degrees, never really fighting but probably frequently engaged in serious disagreements over objectively minor matters. Lots of people are going to work hard to produce food for the population, and, at least as a percentage of the population, yeshivos will be decimated.
The world I described looks a lot like Europe at the turn of the last century. The OTD problem there was a lot worse than it is now.August 4, 2013 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #1046092SecularFrummyMember
In this utopia/dytopia will torah law be the only rule in the land? Will there be “civil law” in addition to halacha?December 2, 2014 4:15 am at 4:15 am #1046093eekMember
Of course he means Torah will be the only law of the land. He’s asking is that a good thing.December 2, 2014 4:32 am at 4:32 am #1046094voos epesMember
There can be no such thing as a Torah state because a Jewish state is forbidden by Jewish law it’s like being a religious atheist there is no such a thingDecember 2, 2014 5:08 am at 5:08 am #1046095theroshyeshivaParticipant
Take a look at sefer melachim to better understand the inherent difficulty that lies in running a religious state. No religious state has ever run, in history, without corruption. Perhaps when moshiach comes this will change, not likely before then. Just take a look at all the politics in the chareidi parties today. Read Paul Johnson’s “History of the Jews” for an analysis of the problems that erupted in the time of bayis sheni. It’s much easier to live a torah life when occupiers govern the land.December 2, 2014 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #1046096my own kind of jewParticipant
Not to mention, the second it becomes obvious that Israel has become a theocracy, it will lose quite a bit of support from many of it’s current supporters (including the U.S)
Furthermore, even if an Orthadox Jew were to become Prime minister, that doesn’t mean the rest of the legislative bodies will be willing to go along with anything he or she might say.
It would also require the large amounts of people currently in Kollel to leave and start taking up full time agriculture, if the agrarian society is the one that arises, I doubt a million+ people contributing nothing to the growing or production of food could be supported easily by the rest.
-MDecember 2, 2014 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #1046097
The OTD’s were never as prominent as during the second Bais Hamikdash.December 2, 2014 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #1046098
Actually the OTD’s were very Prominent from the time of the Haskallah adn beyond
Even in Pre-war Europe they were the MajorityDecember 2, 2014 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #1046099
It is true that eventually, the Orthodox will be a majority. However, that will be a couple generations from now, and it is hard to tell what will happen.
Charedim are growing the most quickly, but the attitudes of charedim are changing — some are becoming more moderate (“the new charedim”), and some are becoming more extreme (Bet Shemesh, the renegade Burka women, etc.). So they will probably be quite a diverse group themselves by 2050 or whatever.
The dati leumi, which range from LWMO to chardali in their hashkafa, are also growing quickly. They will not be the most numerous Orthodox group, but they will be a large block. And of course they fight in the army, they have guns, they believe in their way of life, and seriously, they would rather die than be ruled Iran-style by a council of charedi gedolim.
Chilonim and sephardim may not grow as fast but they will still comprise a significant part of the population, as will Arabs (unless something happens, like a big war or, c”v’s, a Palestinian state). They, along with the dati leumi and many of the charedim, will not allow democracy and civil law to be replaced by an authoritarian Torah state.
So we will likely have some combination of traditional Torah law and civil law, in a democratic framework. Only with Moshiach will it likely be possible to institute pure Torah law (and democracy will probably still play some role, if necessary — will Moshiach even decide when the local parks will close, for example?)
Most Orthodox rabbis today, not just Chabad and other kiruv people, understand that forcing people to obey Torah will just turn them off, and make them hate everything Yiddishkeit stands for. We need to encourage people to make teshuvah through reasoned arguments, and most of all through kiddush Hashem, the power of a good example.December 2, 2014 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #1046100
If that would happen we cut off the heads of non Jews who would be caught stealing (or transgressing any of the Sheva Mitzvos and I am not sure you would need two eidim and hassrah for non Jews) we would publicly stone adulterers and Jews who may convert to other religions (besides perhaps for converting to Islam). I also believe that if someone got off on a technicality they could be locked in jail and fed barley until their stomachs bursted, I’m not really sure about this though maybe someone here can explain this concept. Teenagers caught having relationships with the opposite gender would be publicly flogged and whole bunch of other things of this nature would happen.
I’m not sure what you may call this but it’s definitely not Utopia.December 3, 2014 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #1046101
If you like freedom from the Torah then obviously you wouldn’t want to have to follow it. We wouldn’t kill anyone until after Moshiach comes, at which point Emuna won’t be a sticky issue. It would be very clear.
What we have now is far from utopia. Teenagers that aren’t responsible enough to think ahead in life and weigh the outcome of their stupidity have the run of the day. Shallow people dictate to the rest of us what is right and what is wrong.
The picture you gave doesn’t square with any depiction given by Chazal. And yes, although you don’t like tickets you agree that you do want police presence. Similarly, nothing is more peaceful than a Torah run society. Punishments, however rare and almost impossible, are announced to keep it going.December 3, 2014 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #1046102secretagentyidMember
With moshiach and the worldwide revelation that brings, it would be utopia.
With the world as it is now, it would be majorly dystopian and probably ruin yiddishkeit for many people.December 3, 2014 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #1046103
The question of the OP wasn’t about an idealized time when no one was tempted to do anything wrong any longer.
The OP was talking about if Chareiedim built a theocracy to enforce “Torah law”. The reality is that barring an ideal state of affairs where evreyone will WANT to keep the Torah without it being enforced such a theocracy would look more similar to the country ISIS is building then a country like the USA
Can you explain what the concept of locking someone in a “kipah” and feeding him barley until his or her stomach burst was and when it was applied? I have personally heard Rabbi Avigdor Miller say in one of his Thursday night lectures that the death penalty was not frowned upon by chazal and that when someone would get off on a technical issue they would apply this punishment to them. Also do non Jews need eidim and haasrah?December 4, 2014 12:48 am at 12:48 am #1046104
Having a Torah-run country is Moshiach.
The punishments are put in place to show how important those Mitzvos are. Shabbos is severe because it is a Chiyuv Skila/Kares, not because you will get killed. The idea of punishing someone with other stuff depends on necessity and is not a Psak Din per se. It is like all other regulations that are put into place to safe-guard society.
As to your last question, I believe that Eidim yes, Hasraa not. This applies to those who chose to live under your jurisdiction.December 4, 2014 1:47 am at 1:47 am #1046105
So you are saying that the punishments prescribed by the Torah were not really meant to be applied forever but were just what happened to work in that culture at that time but nowadays even if we had a Sanhedrin etc. we wouldn’t carry them out? If so, that’s an interesting idea but I’m not sure that it is what most Orthodox Jews and Gedolim see it and it’s definitely not what I heard in Yeshiva and from Rabbi A. Miller.
Also If you believe that to be the case at what point do you draw the line between what in the Torah is an eternal truth meant to be applied at all times and what is simply a description of something that was done in those times because it worked in that context?December 4, 2014 2:13 am at 2:13 am #1046106
I believe according to some views in the Gemara, some of the punishments were never carried out at all.December 4, 2014 3:03 am at 3:03 am #1046107
The requirements of eidim and hasra’ah are so limiting, that one would have to put effort into being subject to malkos or misas beis din. It stands to reason, then, that perhaps the Torah prescribes these punishments more to teach us the severity of the issurim than to actually carry them out.
I am guessing this is what HaLeiVi meant, not that they are limited to a specific culture.December 4, 2014 11:02 am at 11:02 am #1046108
My understanding (and I know I may be wrong) is that if the government decided that it was “necessary” for the good of society they could and would dispense with those restrictions (eidim and haasrah) and lock the person in jail and feed them barley until his or her stomach burst.
Also would publicly protesting a decision of the King be considered a Mored B’malchus? If it would be then protesting something the government decided would get you killed as well and I’m not sure you need eidim and haasrah for that eitherDecember 4, 2014 12:00 pm at 12:00 pm #1046109
I also have heard in the name of the Chazon Ish (I read it in Oz Vehadar levusha by R falk in the name of the CH”I as well) that a woman appearing in public in a state run according to Torah law would be stoned. He may have been exaggerating to make a point but I don’t think so….December 4, 2014 12:27 pm at 12:27 pm #1046110
So what you’re saying is that order must be maintained regardless. That makes sense, no?December 4, 2014 1:30 pm at 1:30 pm #1046111
Maintaining order doesn’t have to mean suspending the legal process to the extent where you torture people to death. Giving any government the right to do whatever it decides is necessary to “maintain order” and the right to suspend any law they want at will never ends well. Besides there are certain things (like starving people until their stomachs explode) that a government should never have the right to do.December 4, 2014 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #1046112
You’ll have to find me a source for that so that we can put into it into context and discuss it.December 4, 2014 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #1046113
The Rambam, in describing what a king can enforce, does not mention your starving with barely method. The idea is simply that the king has the right and duty Yup create society based rules and enforce them. Just like any other government.
And I have no idea from where you pulled that culture thing.December 4, 2014 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #1046114
I remember hearing about this concept from Rabbi Miller. Will try and find some more sources later or over Shabbos.December 4, 2014 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #1046115
“I also have heard in the name of the Chazon Ish (I read it in Oz Vehadar levusha by R falk in the name of the CH”I as well) that a woman appearing in public in a state run according to Torah law would be stoned.”
This makes no sense, and must be a mistake. Even Rambam, who is the most restrictive on the issue of women outside the home, says women can leave the home once a month (and this must have been affected by his social context of being in a medieval anti-Semitic Muslim country).December 4, 2014 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #1046116
I meant in appearing in public IN PANTS!!! My bad. I’m sorry for the mistakeDecember 4, 2014 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #1046117Avi KParticipant
1. On the contrary, Voos. A state is mandated by the Tora. See Rambna, Sefer HaMitzvot, mitzvot that Rambam “forgot”.
2. Even in a Tora state the punishments for aveirot ben adam laMakom will not be enforceable because of the procedural problems and technicalities of acceptable proof. The king (or whatever governmental authority there will be) only has authority regarding aveirot ben adam l’chaveiro as stated by the Avnei Nezer in Yoreh Deah 312:50:
?????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????
??? ?????? ???? ?????? ??????? ?????? ?????? .?????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ???
????? ????.December 4, 2014 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #1046118
If the CHaredi Parties would win a majority in the next election Do you think they would adopt a torah based system and adopt torah punishments including Skelah and Mackot? And if they would implement such laws, do you think they would be successful?December 4, 2014 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #1046119WolfishMusingsParticipant
It seems to me that we already have a few little laboratories in which we can observe the (partial*) result of such an experiment.
(* I say partial because these communities are, of course, subject to NY State and Federal Law. Yet, they also have quite a bit of autonomy to run things internally. You won’t learn about the Torah world should conduct foreign policy from these places, but you will learn quite a bit on how individual communities may function.)December 4, 2014 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #1046120
New Square and Kiryat Joel do not contain anyone who is hostile to their leadership . If the Charedim ruled Israel there would be alot of Chilonim who dont exist in KJ or New SquareDecember 4, 2014 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #1046121monroeyiddMember
theres a big difference between here in monroe and a independent stateDecember 5, 2014 6:49 am at 6:49 am #1046122
By getting a majority that doesn’t give you Smicha. We’d still have to rely on excommunication and other Knasos.
But yes, enforcing the Torah is Utopia. Right now the Torah is in Galus. It was downgraded to a nice idea. But it is law. It is the law that Hashem gave us.
The Torah being enforced is not extremism. ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????. Your references to other theocracies doesn’t truly portray what we had and what we will have. On the other hand, there are certain Western ideals which we don’t agree to. Namely, the new concept of giving behavior the status of a birthmark. Disapproving of certain behavior was spun into a type of racism.
For a situation where nothing is proven the best approach is to live and let live, rather than have everyone claim to be the one with the truth. This was a realization part of the world came to at last, after centuries of coercing others to follow the ideals of the host.
However, when the truth is known to everyone then it is not anymore a matter of belief. It will make perfect sense for Hashem’s law to be mandatory. It shouldn’t be harder to justify than, say, alternate side parking.December 5, 2014 11:44 am at 11:44 am #1046123
If everyone without exception agrees voluntarily to abide by just about ANY ideology even Islam it would be Utopia. No one would ever violate it in any way serious enough to cause much more then the equivalent of a traffic ticket and there would be no crime.
The question of the OP was not talking about a magical society like the one you are picturing, if in this day an age a theocracy based on Torah law was established in modern day Israel by a takeover of the government the theocracy would look a lot more like ISIS then any of the countries we like living in.December 5, 2014 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #1046124
000646, and zahavasdad, I don’t think anyone is advocating or thinks feasible a theocracy in Eretz Yisroel until Moshiach comes. If (maybe I should say when) the charedim will be the majority, if Moshiach hasn’t arrived, it will indeed be thorny. I think a frum government will have a
horrible dilemma: how can it not halachically make it illegal to violate the Torah, but OTOH how can it possibly enforce or even pass such a law without an extremely angry backlash with terrible repercussions?
I really hope Moshiach comes first.December 5, 2014 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #1046125
There was a famous incident in Netanya, where a movie theater was open on Friday night, Rav Elyshiv ruled that one must protest this movie theater no matter what and the Sephardic Rav of Netanya was against protesting saying not only would it not work, it would likely backfire (It in the end did backfire as the theater is still open and there is more hostility to the charedim) . Rav Elyshiv ruled that the backlash didnt matter, Chilul shabbos was occuring and must be protested.
Certainly there are some elements when a majority is hit would love to pass shabbos laws in Israel and would do whatever it takes to make it happenDecember 5, 2014 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #1046126
Are you purposely adding words to my point to dissolve it? I didn’t mention anything about voluntary. Even in the Midbar there were those who deserved to die and did. The idea is about being evident and not just a matter of what someone believes. Murder is considered to be self evidently wrong and immoral (so far). Does that mean nobody murders? Nobody steals? Are our jails empty?
As for taking over before Moshiach, as I said, that is Moshiach. The criteria for Moshiach is restoring Torah and Avodah, per the Rambam. So Malei Haaretz De’ah Ess Hashem will be here the same time as Torah rule.
Besides, the Chazon Ish considers anyone born irreligious to be a Tinok Shenishba, since they never had a fair shot at truly understanding what the Torah is. So, Kiruv would continue as usual. And no stoning, killing, beheading or any other stereotype you might want to borrow from other cultures.
Do you think we never had autonomous rule? Was that ISIS?December 5, 2014 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #1046127
Its not so pashut that everyone follows the Chazon Ish on Tinok S’neshba. There are a few that hold they are mamesh R-shaim.December 5, 2014 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #1046128
They hold that I’m also Mamash a Rasha, and there’s no need to worry about them joining the government because they would be against any kind of Jewish government. And they would yell even louder about a religious, or better yet, Chareidi one.
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