July 16, 2019 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #1760060
ubiq its also a lav according to some rishonim but i forgot which oneJuly 16, 2019 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #1759530
“in which case does the victim feel worse. im saying that doesn’t equate with the perpetrator having done an objectively worse crime.”
You say “he was a king. it was for midos” I dont fully understand your response. Are you saying the two thieves are just as bad?
If so why did Dovid call for such a severe punishment?
“its a limud מאי חזית דדמא דידך סומק מדמא דחברך”
Aha! its a sevara. Ie something we (read: chazal) came up with on our own. They didnt say, “well Shabbos is more chamur becasue it has a more serious onesh and we dont give up our life, so for mere murder for sure don’t give up your life.”
As the Rambam says rotzeach 4:9 (referring to locking in kupa,) וְאֵין עוֹשִׂין דָּבָר זֶה לִשְׁאָר מְחֻיְּבֵי מִיתַת בֵּית דִּין אֲבָל אִם נִתְחַיֵּב מִיתָה מְמִיתִין אוֹתוֹ וְאִם אֵינוֹ חַיָּב מִיתָה פּוֹטְרִין אוֹתוֹ. שֶׁאַף עַל פִּי שֶׁיֵּשׁ עֲוֹנוֹת חֲמוּרִין מִשְּׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים אֵין בָּהֶן הַשְׁחָתַת יִשּׁוּבוֹ שֶׁל עוֹלָם כִּשְׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים. אֲפִלּוּ עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה וְאֵין צָרִיךְ לוֹמַר עֲרָיוֹת אוֹ חִלּוּל שַׁבָּת אֵינָן כִּשְׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים. שֶׁאֵלּוּ עֲוֹנוֹת הֵן מֵעֲבֵרוֹת שֶׁבֵּין אָדָם לַמָּקוֹם אֲבָל שְׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים מֵעֲבֵרוֹת שֶׁבֵּינוֹ לְבֵין חֲבֵרוֹ.
Sure in some (many/most ?) regards some aveiros are worse than murder. however this does not change that In another regard murder is far worse. I dont pretend to understand how Hashem judges various crimes. But clearly in some aspect murder is worse than Shabbos it has “הַשְׁחָתַת יִשּׁוּבוֹ שֶׁל עוֹלָם” It isnt a stretch at all to say rape too has “הַשְׁחָתַת יִשּׁוּבוֹ שֶׁל עוֹלָם” (As the Torah says “כִּי כַּאֲשֶׁר יָקוּם אִישׁ עַל-רֵעֵהוּ, וּרְצָחוֹ נֶפֶשׁ–כֵּן, הַדָּבָר הַזֶּה.” (devarim 22:26) ) granted the punishment isnt as severe, for whatever reason.
But punishment in of itself is not the sole factor determining severity of an act.
there are different aspects to any aveira. When Sedom set up a bed in which they lengthened and cut legs. They didnt violate any “techincal” sehva mitzvos. It is still abhorent, woprthy of destruction. When dovid heard about the thief, he didnt say “who cares about the details he pays mamon” He was outraged and condemend him to death. now, we dont have din meelch, but I dont understand how you fit the idea that theft is theft
” its bad from a midos perspective (nogea at least for a yid )”
I was asking for a goy.
“killing a father must be a worse מיתה because it’s a worse חטא
Not a difference of לחבירו-למקום”
I dont follow. Could you please elaborate .
“the third is no different then calling a molester a rodef so im not sure why even you would consider that an exception”
because we all know it isnt strictly speaking a case of a rodef. We expand the din rodef for the betterment of society, much as you expanded the din meisis to include zionism. Similarly you seem to be coming around to “and its a violation of personal property rights” (regarding rape). Interesting take, I hear itJuly 16, 2019 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #1760132
in my opinion this is the most solid post i have ever seen from you
i still dont agree,(chazal can make svaras binding on others, rape is mentioned specifically and this case is left out)
but you’ve given me much to think about
thank youJuly 16, 2019 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #1760105
“Is there not just a definitive proof that we do or don’t weigh acts based on their punishments? ”
Yes. There are many. Though the best one is Rambam Roteiach 4:9 וְאֵין עוֹשִׂין דָּבָר זֶה לִשְׁאָר מְחֻיְּבֵי מִיתַת בֵּית דִּין אֲבָל אִם נִתְחַיֵּב מִיתָה מְמִיתִין אוֹתוֹ וְאִם אֵינוֹ חַיָּב מִיתָה פּוֹטְרִין אוֹתוֹ. שֶׁאַף עַל פִּי שֶׁיֵּשׁ עֲוֹנוֹת חֲמוּרִין מִשְּׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים אֵין בָּהֶן הַשְׁחָתַת יִשּׁוּבוֹ שֶׁל עוֹלָם כִּשְׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים. אֲפִלּוּ עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה וְאֵין צָרִיךְ לוֹמַר עֲרָיוֹת אוֹ חִלּוּל שַׁבָּת אֵינָן כִּשְׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים. שֶׁאֵלּוּ עֲוֹנוֹת הֵן מֵעֲבֵרוֹת שֶׁבֵּין אָדָם לַמָּקוֹם אֲבָל שְׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים מֵעֲבֵרוֹת שֶׁבֵּינוֹ לְבֵין חֲבֵרוֹ
I elaborate on this in a longer post that (I assume) is awaiting moderation.
Although other aveiras are in some aspects more chamur. In others murder is worse it contains הַשְׁחָתַת יִשּׁוּבוֹ שֶׁל עוֹלָם. OF course severity of an aveira is somewhat based on severity of onesh, this isnt absolute.
its assur from the overall idea of gezel which extends rto personal autonomy over their body as well”
and if gezel wasnt assur you wouldnt know that it was assur.
Look if you want to categorize rape as a form of gezel I’m ok with that. It is a terribly abhorrent gezel. that seems reasonable
“i gave you the page of the rashi”
מאכילין אותו הקל הקל – אם אין לנו דברים מותרים כדי צרכו ויש לפנינו מיני איסורין מאכילין אותו הקל הקל שבהם:
טבל ושביעית מאכילין אותו שביעית – לאחר זמן הביעור שהטבל במיתה בידי שמים והשביעית בעשה:
Yes I saw that, and I responded several times (t o be fair I dont know what posts went up when) that of course for things that we wouldnt know are assur, we only know “how assur” they are based on onesh.
I’m saying that this isnt absolute.
“kluger is the one arguing that we DO infer based on punishment,”
that should read. “solely” Of course we judge to a extent based on punishment as Ive said from the startJuly 16, 2019 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #1760164
my neighbor thinks scratching his car is the worst offense you can do
he thinks its at least as bad as murder
how would you respond ?
on the news there is a story about a protest against legal trophy hunting”its beyond abhorrent”
yet abortion on demand is a right
your really going to judge severity by peoples feelings?July 16, 2019 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #1760208
Ubiq: On what basis would you assume gezel of kesef is less severe than attacking a divorcee?July 16, 2019 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #1760206👑RebYidd23Participant
Maybe rape is considered a compound crime and is prosecuted like any other assault in addition to penalties that are based on the type of victim.July 16, 2019 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #1760230
“On what basis would you assume gezel of kesef is less severe than attacking a divorcee?”
We can ask people who’ve had both done to them
“my neighbor thinks scratching his car is the worst offense you can do
he thinks its at least as bad as murder
how would you respond ?”
I guess I would say “What a Rasha I can’t believe someone did that to your car. If only he did the much less severe act of raping someone.” ???
what would you say?
What would you say to Nosson Hanavi, when asked about the rich thief? Would you say he is just as bad as the poor thief. (Yes beis din treats them the same I’m not disputing that, but is their “badness” the same?)
“your really going to judge severity by peoples feelings?”
not “people” per se, but someone qualified. a King (see derashs haRan regarding the din meelch vs din beis din) A beis din/kehal leadership. See Teshuvas Rivash 399 ” ולפי זה עלה בידינו שהקהל …”יכולים לקנוס בתקנותיהם כפי אשר יראה בעיניה ”
” ועוד שהרי אפי’ בדיני נפשות היו ב”ד מכין ועונשין שלא מן התורה כדי לעשות סייג לתורה ומשום מיגדר מלתא ” See there at length.
“but you’ve given me much to think about
thanks for the kind words. Sometimes I get caught up in the excitement of discussions and stick in needless snark . kudos to you for being above that and always posting so nicelyJuly 16, 2019 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #1760235
That just seems to prove that we can’t compare aveiros sh’bein adam l’makom with bein adam l’chaveiro. Within each category, it doesn’t show that you can’t infer based on punishment (I still think you’re right, I just don’t see this as a proof). Also, how does it help your argument that he explicitly says giloy arayos is not as chamor as murder? Doesn’t that go against exactly what you’ve been saying?
“Look if you want to categorize rape as a form of gezel I’m ok with that. It is a terribly abhorrent gezel. that seems reasonable”
How about if we categorize it as eating chometz on Pesach while we’re at it just to cover our bases?
Before I get accused of defending rapists, I’m not (I don’t even defend it when it happens at yeshivas, which makes me a big koifer here apparently). I’m just commenting on the absurdity this has reached, which is actually a good thing. It’s un-derailing the thread. Re-railing, so to speak.July 16, 2019 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #1760256
kudos to you for being above that and always posting so nicely
See my posts to Phil
I have no problem ignoring snark In the context of a discussion.
Such is the way of learning. It means you are passionate about your feelings.
If we were face to face I’d be giving back in kind. It’s just to much effort to type all that extra.
But when someone’s whole position is nothing but snark, well that’s differentJuly 16, 2019 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #1760257orchadashParticipant
With all the words that you mentioned, you seem to be missing the point. Rape is a form of nezek. When it comes to a besulah its also gezel.* It doesnt matter whether or not she minds. Molestion that keeps a besulah a besulah is not gezel. Its just nezikin. The Torah has a very fair approach. He has to pay for damages including emotional/mental/physcological. In secular court we would call it suing. Even if you werr to posit that she didnt need therapy, edited he still has to pay. And if shes a besulah then theres definately tzaar and boshes.
It’s definately a crime according to Torah, with a reasonable punishment.
Is your question why the Torah didnt mandate a death sentance? Thats a different story.July 16, 2019 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #1760275
You like the Rambam so let’s see what he says
הלכות איסורי ביאה יב-ז ”עון זה אע”פ שאין בו מיתת ב”ד אל יהי קל בעיניך….
פרק יב-יג אל יהי עוון זה קל בעיניך מפני שאין בו מלקות מן התורה שגם…
Now I ask you
What is he worried about?
Why would I think it’s not a serious offense?
The answer is clear, to me at least , from his words.
Because it’s missing the punishment you may think it’s not so serious. So the Rambam needs to tell you that even so,
it is serious.
And that’s the secret of all the exceptions you may find.
The rule, as seen from this Rambam and other places, is that the severity of the crime can be seen from its punishment. Of course there are exceptions. But you or I can’t be the one to decide that.
If the Rambam were to say rape is the most serious crime, I’d have to agree with him (unless of course other ראשונים argued on him)
But he doesn’t.
In the Rambam you brought, he has a whole list of crimes and he neglects to bring rape!
Yes it can be included in some of the general ones he listed, but so can many others, and you can’t prove it belongs there.July 17, 2019 8:17 am at 8:17 am #1760406
“When it comes to a besulah its also gezel.”
“It’s definately a crime according to Torah, with a reasonable punishment.”
This point has been brought. The reason the argument is still going is because most 21st century thinkers would not consider a monetary penalty “reasonable” for this particular crime (myself included). So, the thread has now turned into trying to find new issurim to glue on to the offence.
“In the Rambam you brought, he has a whole list of crimes and he neglects to bring rape!”
He brings arayos. Why would he parse out each individual thing included in that? And, assuming we’re talking about the same Rambam, it’s not exactly a “whole list.” It’s just the well-known, 3 aveiros over which one should prefer death.July 17, 2019 9:04 am at 9:04 am #1760431
Neville, rape is not arayos,
Arayos are forbidden relationships meaning there is an issur with the two people coming togetherJuly 17, 2019 9:06 am at 9:06 am #1760426
“You like the Rambam so let’s see what he says…”
you mean he provides even MORE cases where the severity of a crime is NOT judged by its punishment?!
Again, yes as a rule of thumb a more severe act has a more severe punishment. My point is that this isn’t absolute, we know have 3 explicit Rambams essentially saying that.
“Yes it can be included in some of the general ones he listed, but so can many others, and you can’t prove it belongs there.”
I suppose I can’t. To be honest I guess I didnt think I’d have to. I thought that was something we could all agree on. I guess this is where we finally reach an impasse
This is the lack of critical thinking part I alluded to earlier. A question like “Ubiq: On what basis would you assume gezel of kesef is less severe than attacking a divorcee?” As if that needed an explicit raya of some sort., troubles me (Joseph of course isnt really asking the question but I think many would, and you seem to agree with him)
“But you or I can’t be the one to decide that.”
I guess I didn’t realize I was saying a chiddush. To sum up my position “Rape is one of the worst crimes a person can do. Aye why doesn’t it have such a bad punishment? I don’t know”
To some up yours “Rape isn’t so bad, if it was it would have a worse punishment”
Of the two yours seems to me (and I assumed most people) like a much bigger chiddush. One that would need an explicit raya, not mine.July 17, 2019 9:08 am at 9:08 am #1760424PhilParticipant
“On what basis would you assume gezel of kesef is less severe than attacking a divorcee?”
This thread deteriorated from an exercise in “critical thinking” to troll food for a menuval shelo birshus to publicly question whether raping a Jewish woman is no worse than stealing a wallet. What a low for YWN.
me? I didn’t write those posts!July 17, 2019 9:20 am at 9:20 am #1760432
Neville I just went back to the Rambam.
Besides what I wrote before, the Rambam is putting arayos in the side of between man and God, saying it is missing the component of destroying civilization.
You sure you want to put rape in that category?
That would make you a greater outlier than me, as you’d be claiming rape has no “בין אדם לחבירו ” component!!!
To ubiq I’d ask based on that Rambam,
edited – please, no more questions…July 17, 2019 10:45 am at 10:45 am #1760448
☺July 19, 2019 1:39 am at 1:39 am #1761469
Now that we’ve concluded that Torah punishments aren’t random and are indicative of or related to the severity of the underlying crime, we can get back onto topic…
OOT seems nicer than NYC.
I respect your opinion.
I like NYC better. It has more religious resources.
You dumb, mean troll! Why are you alive?!July 19, 2019 8:39 am at 8:39 am #1761568
“Now that we’ve concluded that Torah punishments aren’t random”
that was never ,at all ,the discussion
“and are…. related to the severity of the underlying crime”
that was never debated
“and are indicative of… the severity of the underlying crime,”
That was not the conclusion
As for the discussion
“You dumb, mean troll! ”
I agree with 1 of those categorizations.
and I (usually) find you quite hilarious. I get the joke you are quite funny and I enjoy having you aroundJuly 19, 2019 10:08 am at 10:08 am #1761584
I get a kick out of the fact that Joseph could probably save another poster’s family from a burning building, and they would still be mad and yell at him.
He did some hardcore trolling with alt accounts and everything 5 years ago, maybe more. Some people just never got over it. My theory is that people on this site are overly sensitive to internet trolling because they aren’t as used to it, which also makes it a great place to troll.July 19, 2019 11:19 am at 11:19 am #1761650
Neville – you seem to watch a lot of fox news. I agree that if trump would save another poster’s family from a burning building people would still be mad at him but that does not translate here.
I hear your point, but I think (based on reading your posts here) that you have views and trollish thrills (that you’ve admitted to) that would make you unlikely to notice some of the points that would support the ongoing anger. Do I want to provide examples? No, this isn’t a roast. But if you wanted to, you would probably be able to spot them yourself.July 19, 2019 11:23 am at 11:23 am #1761644PhilParticipant
It would be wonderful if the resident troll actually posted comments such as, “I like NYC better. It has more religious resources”. Instead, every thread is filled with the usual drivel, like those regarding IT vs. OOT:
“Giving up the humongous ruchniyos benefits of living IT to gain some ostensible gashmiyus benefits of OOT, is terribly foolish.”
“I’m sorry to see that you still haven’t been able to overcome your jealousy of those zoche to life IT”
“OOT is very often a spiritual danger zone”
When someone constantly questions the basic life choices of other Jews and judges them as being foolish and jealous, that’s the textbook definition of a nasty troll. Especially when said troll is so woefully ignorant of any reality outside his Brooklyn basement tenement.July 19, 2019 11:32 am at 11:32 am #1761656
haha, I had started making a list as well, just from this thread. But I had a feeling Neville would Segway on dissecting each comment instead of ingesting the whole picture. I also figured I would refrain from roasting.
But Neville, that was what I meant about you being AOC’s writer (before I knew you were black).
Comment: If you hate America than go back to your own country
AOC responding to that comment: trump doesn’t just hate us, he hates minnisota, Wisconsin…. etc.
You can rewrite the comment and then make valid sounding inferences, but it doesn’t change the fact that you rewrote the comment.July 19, 2019 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #1761661
I might be out of the loop on AOC news. I truly don’t see the mashal you’re making. I personally think that “love it or leave it” is my more core, defining political belief as an American (not trolling; that’s one area where I’m consistent). Either way, I don’t see how the situation applies to Joseph and OOT vs. IT.
Obviously, I represented Joseph’s comments as more polite and everyone else’s as more extreme in my summary for humor-purposes. That doesn’t change the reality that Joseph, who you all claim is just trying to rile people up, barely has to do anything nowadays to rile people up. I get the vibe that others read into his comments in an extremely malicious tone while I read them in a more hokey jokey tone.July 19, 2019 1:26 pm at 1:26 pm #1761697
” I get the vibe that others read into his comments in an extremely malicious tone while I read them in a more hokey jokey tone.”
well maybe that explains why you don’t get it.July 19, 2019 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #1761825
“well maybe that explains why you don’t get it.”
You think AOC reads into Trump in a hokey jokey way? Wow, I had her all wrong I guess.July 19, 2019 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #1761835
“” I get the vibe that others read into his comments in an extremely malicious tone while I read them in a more hokey jokey tone.””
I too think Joseph is one giant “hokey joke” (probably not the same way as you, but like you I don’t think he ACTUALLY means what he says we just differ on what he actually believes )
But many posters DO take him seriously. Its not one poster one time, it is many posters many times. when people do take offence he never, says “I’m sorry , you took it extremely maliciously, I meant it in more of a hokey jokey way” On the contrary he doubles down on that same tone.
So in short, he knowingly makes comments he knows many take “extremely maliciously” but makes them any way with that knowledge
How i that not trollish behavior (even assuming he believes the underlying message) ?July 19, 2019 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #1761837
Yes yes! What he said 👆July 20, 2019 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #1761838
Neville- i ask in all seriousness (i called a T.O.)
Is the obfuscation deliberate? Several times you’ll stick random sentence fragments together from my posts and pretend either i dont make sense or you dont understand. And if it is deliberate, is it to belittle me, or just to irritate me?
[Seriously wondering emoji]July 21, 2019 12:14 am at 12:14 am #1761902
“So in short, he knowingly makes comments he knows many take “extremely maliciously” but makes them any way with that knowledge”
So, for example, you think he believes NYC is better than OOT, but he represents his views in such a way that he’s almost satirizing himself by making it seem more extreme than it is? That’s how I view it. I assumed people were accusing him of, chas v’shalom, actually thinking OOT is better and purposely posting the opposite to make the IT argument look bad. As for knowing how people will take them, I believe Joseph and I share this core belief: those who are easily offended deserve to be offended. There are plenty of folks on this forum that scream bloody murder at having to listen to the most mundane, mainstream shittah slightly to the right of their own, so the idea of bothering them a little extra is a noble cause in my opinion.
“Is the obfuscation deliberate?”
Are you referring to my last comment? I copied your entire quote for it. What more was there other than my original quote that you had copied? Am I doing it now?
I wouldn’t put it past myself to do something like that, but I truly do not understand your AOC comparison. That’s not me trying to insult your intelligence or something; I guess I’m just out of the loop.July 21, 2019 12:31 am at 12:31 am #1761910
“those who are easily offended deserve to be offended”
Comments like that convince me it would be pointless to try finding a meeting of the minds.July 21, 2019 1:25 am at 1:25 am #1761921
“Comments like that convince me it would be pointless to try finding a meeting of the minds.”
What on earth ever gave you the idea it wasn’t pointless? Everything here is pointless.
This is just a slightly glorified way of unleashing our aggression on each other and justifying our own beliefs. If you want a forum with purposeful information (a.k.a. recipes, school’s hashkafos) you have to go to imamother. Which, luckily, I can because I’m a female. I’m also black and muslim.July 21, 2019 1:27 am at 1:27 am #1761924
And my guess is joseph is there as well! Enjoy!July 21, 2019 8:20 am at 8:20 am #1761926
Syag, do I appear in your dreams? Or do I keep you up at night?July 21, 2019 8:28 am at 8:28 am #1761971
Sorry to disappoint you but you dont cross my mind til you’re mentioned or show yourself . As in the conversation with nevile. And asking a female that question is pretty inappropriate and, untznius .July 21, 2019 8:29 am at 8:29 am #1761934
A few questions for you.
Mods I hope you will let these questions through, they are not so heavy
Are you in New York?
Are you always female or just today?
How often do you switch?
Are you black and female? Or black or female?
Are you a black Muslim female?
Does the Muslim in together with the female or are they like separate gears and can be changed individually?
I only ask because I am thinking of doing it myself and I need some guidance
Can I switch my gender to be rich ?
Will that help me get a mortgage?
Why can I only switch my gender? Why can’t I switch yours? Yesterday I felt that my neighbor was a recliner.
I sat on it and they called the cops.
I told the cops I self identify as a free person. So they were not going to lock me up, but one of the cops told me that it identifies me as a suspect
I told it that I identify it as a fraud.
We agreed that I will stand for the next 24 hours as punishment for sitting on my neighbor and the cops left.
I readjusted my directional compass and promptly stood up across my bed.
I just want to know if I made any judgment errorsJuly 21, 2019 12:05 pm at 12:05 pm #1762096
I ran over a crowd with my car and then sold a bunch of secret documents to terrorists and got caught red-handed. My lawyer told me they would drop all the charges if I got gender re-assignment surgery, and it worked! So, I have my freedom and I’ll be posting here forever.
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