A Woman's Place in Frum Society

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  • #599615

    soliek
    Member

    Since when does the Torah have to support Feminism? Why is it that so many women have a hard time understanding that they have their place in society much like men have their place in society? I really don;t understand why so many people get slammed for saying it; that’s how it’s always been! Women yell until they’re blue in the face about how unfair it is that men can have a career but they can’t, to which I say, “Gadol hametzuva v’oseh m’mi she’eno metzuvah v’oseh!” It’s true that “Bzeas apecha tochal lechem” isn’t a mitzvah, but then again, it was Adam’s curse, not Chava’s.

    I really don’t understand why women would want to accept upon themselves an additional klalah on top of childbirth etc. Personally I would want to minimize on klallos, as a man, seeing as I think that women got the shorter end of the stick anyway. Keep childbirth, I’m fine with work, but why deal with both?

    And what Mitzvos Aseh Shehazman Grama? Isn’t the reason why women are patur because they don’t have time in their day because they take care of children? Would it not stand to reason that if the reason no longer applied neither should the p’tur? Obviously I’m not saying that women who work should perform those mitzvos, but logically one could come to that conclusion.

    And how about when their kids have issues in school or socially etc because they were raised by nannies and didn’t receive the attention they need? I mean, if women were given a p’tur specifically to take care of their children, then it once again stands to reason, logically, that they would be at fault if their kid as issues due to a mother who is never around.

    But why is it so unpalatable for women to have a place in society that is not identical to a man’s? The whole premise of the feminist movement is flawed in its goals because men and women ARE different. Men have a purpose and women have a purpose. each is half of a partnership in building a bayis ne’eman. the man works, and the woman cares for the children etc. In mitzrayim the roles were reversed and that was considered cruel! It’s not that one is superior and the other inferior, each has a specific role to play in a successful partnership.

    I suppose the grass is always greener on the other side, but seriously, don’t you women see your husbands come home after a full day’s work exhausted, force himself to go learn, come home again, quickly eat dinner, spend some time with the kids, then collapse into bed exhausted? Why would you want that? (Of course none of this accounts for Kolel wives…that’s a whole separate issue.)

    Also all this talk about intellectual stimulation and women learning and all that jazz…there is plenty for you to learn without having to go to rabbi pauline’s gemarah glass. It’s out there, go find it. But of course…only once dinner is ready 😛

    #814495

    truthsharer
    Member

    You can’t tell a woman to go out and work to support her family and then tell her to stay home and be a woman like the women of 1,000 years ago.

    #814496

    shmoel
    Member

    Well said OP.

    A woman’s place is at home.

    That’s what Shulchan Aruch, the Jewish code of law, says.

    #814497

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Women don’t need to listen to the torah, since they aren’t really jewish

    #814498

    sam4321
    Participant

    The fact that women perpetuate the Jewish linage seems to me they play a big role.

    #814499

    wanderingchana
    Participant

    If a woman’s place is in the home, how is she supposed to support the entire family so that the husband can stay in Kollel?

    #814500

    Smick.
    Member

    Popa; what makes a woman not Jewish? Cause she didn’t have a bris mila???

    #814501

    Women should stay home….as long as men get jobs and support their families…

    #814502

    soliek
    Member

    “If a woman’s place is in the home, how is she supposed to support the entire family so that the husband can stay in Kollel?”

    she shouldnt…her husband should either get a job…or make arrangements

    #814503

    LBK
    Participant

    The New York Post quoted a poster on theyeshivaworld.com this morning in their article about women joining hatzalah. I’m not why the article belongs in the Post, but apparently YWN is the place to go for info on orthodox feminism discussions!!

    #814504

    miritchka
    Member

    popa: thanks for the laugh! its an old joke in our family (and i’m sure many others) and every time i see that line, it cracks me up!

    wanderingchana: thats a good question that has yet to be answered. i work and like many other woman in my position with little children, its hard and as much as i would love to be the sole supporter so my husband can learn full time, i physically cant do it all. my husband learns full time and is on call for his job full time too. He works late into the night so that he can learn as much as possibleduring the day. But, unlike those “better than thou” men who think that they must learn all day and night and leave the burden of working and the responsibilites of bringing up children to their wives, my husband actually cares about my health and sanity. After seeing so many of my friends overworked and hardly having any time for themselves if any, i appreciate my husband more and more…

    soleik: i believe that learning torah is very important for the man of the Jewish family/house, but i agree with you that it is important for him to be there for them too whether it means working part time or working full time and learning at night…

    #814506

    Queen Bee
    Member

    Here’s my opinion. I don’t mean to offend anyone, so please don’t throw rocks at me.

    Guys, before you start yelling at me, I know you have it hard too. Life is hard. It would just be nice to help your wives in any way possible to make her life easier. I know a lot of you do, and that’s great, but I’m talking about those who don’t. You can argue that some wives want to live like that. Great, good for them. I’m not knocking down the kollel life. But I still think a husband should do whatever it takes to ease his wife’s burden.

    #814507

    sam4321
    Participant

    You understand perfectly.That is what she chose and that is what making a sacrafice means.

    #814508

    Queen Bee, I agree 100%

    #814509

    MiddlePath
    Participant

    Queen Bee, two thumbs up!

    #814510

    littleapple
    Member

    I heard Rabbi Pesach Krohn say a Chazal that a man being m’farnais his family is like he is going through tzar laida 24/6. Does anyone know the source because it has been giving me chizuk since I heard this 2 or so years ago (although my wife has not been so misratzeh with it) on the other hand she doesn’t work, at the moment she’s looking (it’s been a long moment btw so far about 18 years), but if true then soliek’s opening comparison of the two klalos is more than valid because in one way the man’s is much more intense!!

    #814511

    Toi
    Participant

    Queen bee- two thumbs down. if a woman CHOOSES this life- kol hakavod,shes a baalas madreiga and should be praised. if she doesnt want it then dont do it and marry someone else. with regards to the OP- youre dead right. men and women have different tafkidim as layed down by chazal. they were created differently. for the genders to try and switch roles is a perversion of the briah, or Hashem wouldnt have made these differences. good for you.

    #814512

    Queen Bee
    Member

    The real question is: did she CHOOSE that life because a) she really believes it’s the best life for her b) she was brainwashed c) everyone else is doing it d) she feared she wouldn’t be able to get married.

    And btw, your post is contradicting. If you believe that men and women are created differently and have different roles, then you should believe that it’s the husband’s job to support the family financially while the wife stays home with the kids and takes care of the house. (Even if your wife CHOSE to support you).

    #814513

    flowers
    Participant

    >>Since when does the Torah have to support Feminism?<<

    Where in the Torah does it say a woman is not allowed to work?

    Says who working equals feminism?

    You question why would women needlessly accept the klalah of work upon themselves. They don’t.

    If they work even though they are adequately supported from their husbands, they don’t have the burden of parnasah on their head! So it isn’t a curse for them. If they work because they need the money, it isn’t an option. They have no choice!

    #814514

    Toi
    Participant

    QB- the ops issue as i understood it wasnt so much a woman working, as much as she was questioning the role reversal that seems to be taking over society, and how women need this sort of “liberation” against male dominancy. she explicitly stated that she is of the opinion that kollel is different. what she meant, as i understood, was in the terms of general society, why do jews feel the need to conform to what is the vogue in society when it can come to be at odds with jewish hashkafa. kolel is not against jewish hashkafa, as such my post was not contradictory.

    #814515

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “if a woman CHOOSES this life”

    Isn’t she then assuming the mans tafkid? Isnt that what the OP is railing against?

    #814516

    littleapple
    Member

    Queen Bee : please think about, in addition to house and kids, caring for a man who is supporting you and them and having “tzaar laida 24/6” , btw Gut gebenched yahr CR!

    #814517

    Queen Bee
    Member

    Toi, my post had nothing to do with feminism or role reversal. Another poster had mentioned kollel life, so I was wondering how a man could put the burden of parnassah on his wife when she has many other responsibilities. That’s all.

    #814518

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “They have no choice!”

    sure they do. the husband can take on a first, or even a second job. jewish men have been doing so since avraham avinu raised cattle. the chofetz chaim spent a few hours helping his wife in the store. the battle for the man has always been how to balance his torah and his ol parnassa. If his wife accepts this role upon herself, good for her, it does not mean it is the ideal.

    #814519

    agittayid
    Participant

    It’s kind of surprising that people who accept change grudgingly would leap headfirst into a grand social experiment. The kollel way of life is not just about learning. It has an impact on many facets of family life in the frum community.

    #814520

    Queen Bee
    Member

    Oh, I forgot to say thanks to mikehall12382 and MiddlePath. It’s great that others feel the same way as I do, though I knew you’d feel the same, MP 🙂

    #814521

    chanie
    Member

    Littleapple, Why don’t you call Rabbi Krohn and ask him?

    Apushatayid, The only reason why the Chofetz Chaim spent an hour or so at his wife’s store, was to make sure that all the weights and measures were correct.

    #814522

    Toi
    Participant

    QB- the op was clearly railing against the element of feminism that has crept into society. the problem would seemingly be a discrepancy with torah hashkafa; a discprepancy not found in the kollel lifestyle. her problem wasnt working. and i agree with you that a husband should do whatever he can to ease a wife’s burden.

    #814523

    Sam2
    Participant

    Chanie: Revisionist history at its best.

    #814525

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    This is a Machlokes between the Gedolim.

    Rav Miller and others like him hold that the woman should be at home, and the husband should be the breadwinner and king of the house.

    The proponents of Kollel (such as the current Roshei Yeshiva in Lakewood) hold that the woman should be the breadwinner and king of the house, and the man should be in Kollel.

    Both are valid Jewish Hashkafos, and one should speak to a Rov and look at all the angles to decide which is best for their Yiddishkeit.

    #814526

    flowers
    Participant

    apushatayid: I wasn’t referring to kollel couples. I was referring to either men who are too lazy to earn a decent living, or men who try hard but just aren’t making enough.

    Why do you suppose it’s better for a man to work two jobs, and not have any time for his family, than for a woman to take a part time job, and they take care of the family together in whatever way works for them? Not all working men have the stamina to work work two jobs, nor are many willing. There are also men who are not interested in helping out at home nor willing to make real effort to earn a decent living. Then what is a woman to do?

    This OP annoyed me because many wonderful women work VERY HARD juggling both their family and their job, and they get critisized!

    #814527

    PS

    “Apushatayid, The only reason why the Chofetz Chaim spent an hour or so at his wife’s store, was to make sure that all the weights and measures were correct”

    That is still called working….

    #814528

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Well said.

    #814529

    EzratHashem
    Member

    When a person says we must be a 2-income family then the question must be about standard of living. If we are talking about trying to put meals on the table and meet monthly expenses, it’s one thing, but if it’s about buying an expensive house,imported furniture, cars, designer clothing & sheitels, the latest gadgets, the list goes on and on, well, should the little kids have to sacrifice having their mommy raise them for the gashmius?

    #814530

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    When a person says we must be a 2-income family then the question must be about standard of living. If we are talking about trying to put meals on the table and meet monthly expenses, it’s one thing, but if it’s about buying an expensive house,imported furniture, cars, designer clothing & sheitels, the latest gadgets, the list goes on and on, well, should the little kids have to sacrifice having their mommy raise them for the gashmius?

    Or Full tuition.

    #814531

    EzratHashem
    Member

    Personally I would place tuition in the category of necessary monthly expenses, as opposed to the list of luxuries. Whether tuition is too high is another thread.

    #814532

    soliek
    Member

    well i find the whole system which forces women to work to be objectionable…

    #814533

    “Or Full tuition.”

    I often wonder how many kids in my childrens classes actually pay full tuition…Sometimes I wonder if I’m subsidising other children, becasue I pay the full amount….And I don’t live the “high” life with a dual income not have a fancy house/cars…when you p[ay the full amount there is little left over

    #814534

    One thing I can say is that I find Chasidish girls are generally very temimusdik. (By others too, but by them it is much more prevalent.)

    #814535

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I am really curious how the OP believes a women with children should spend every waking hour of her day? The implication is that if she does anything or has an interest in anything other than to take care of the children or the household she is a feminist.

    #814536

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Personally I would place tuition in the category of necessary monthly expenses, as opposed to the list of luxuries. Whether tuition is too high is another thread.

    And since you can’t pay full tuition on a single 5 figure (or even low six figure) salary….

    #814537

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    well i find the whole system which forces women to work to be objectionable…

    So do I. I propose that “soliek” will from here on in pay everyone’s tuition and needs, allowing women to be home and men be in Kollel.

    I often wonder how many kids in my childrens classes actually pay full tuition…Sometimes I wonder if I’m subsidising other children, becasue I pay the full amount….And I don’t live the “high” life with a dual income not have a fancy house/cars…when you p[ay the full amount there is little left over

    I know they don’t. I have to do what is Yashar, and they have to do what they think is right.

    #814538

    littleapple
    Member

    I often wonder… Why not ask the Administrator what is the break even point and what is the average family paying? Then you will know where you fall. A major large Yeshiva in Brooklyn published that info several years ago in the hope it would help with donations, I heard it didn’t.

    #814539

    You cannot force women to work for the purpose of paying full tuition. A woman’s place is at home.

    #814540

    I feel it is my responsibility to pay the full tuition bill, if that means working longer and harder, or having my wife work as well…so be it…

    I have no problem with people who are doing their best getting help, but I do have an issue subsidising a child’s tuition when the father is not working and is “able body and mind”….

    #814542

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    You cannot force women to work for the purpose of paying full tuition. A woman’s place is at home.

    Edit: We have outlawed slavery, correct. However, the question is what is supposed to be done, not what can you get away with. The husband could also sit at home doing nothing and his children would still be accepted to yeshiva.

    #814543

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Excellent question. File it under “Why should I not take Tzedaka when others do?” Or “Do I really mean it when I ask Hashem “Lo Lidai Matnas Basar V’Dam”?”

    #814544

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I often wonder… Why not ask the Administrator what is the break even point and what is the average family paying? Then you will know where you fall

    At least for me, I have no need to do so.

    #814545

    “Source?”

    A woman’s place is defined in the Torah and commentaries. It is at home, not at work.

    #814546

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    1: Where have Chazal said so in place of the other option being to take Tzedaka?

    2: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/a-womans-place-in-frum-society#post-306001 . Your assumption is false.

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