Abbaye vs. Rava and Rav vs. R' Yochanan

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  • May 21, 2014 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #612836
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    R’ Yochanan holds that you have to be someich geula l’tefila even by maariv. RYBL holds that you don’t. R’ Amram paskened that you don’t have to because the halacha is that Maariv is a reshus. Tosafos and the Rosh ask that if semicha is dependent on maariv being a chov then it comes out that R’ Yochanan holds that maariv is a chov, and since Rav holds that maariv is a reshus, the rule that Rav vs. R’ Yochanan halacha keR’ Yochanan would pasken that maariv is in fact a chov. The problem is that the discussion of whether maariv is a chov/reshus is also a machlokes Abbaye vs. Rava where Rava holds that it’s a reshus. So the rule of Abbaye vs. Rava halacha keRava should pasken that it’s a reshus. The Maadnei Yom Tov addresses this question by saying that perhaps the rule of Abbaye vs. Rava halacha keRava only applies to a machlokes in their own sevara but not when they are merely paskening a machlokes Tannaim, in which case we are left with Rav vs. R’ Yochanan halacha keR’ Yochanan.

    Why wouldn’t this same chiluk apply to the rule of Rav vs. R’ Yochanan halacha keR’ Yochanan?

    May 21, 2014 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #1039346
    Sam2
    Participant

    No, because Rav and R’ Yochanan came first. Thus, whenever it was determined that Halacha is KR’ Yochanan in such a case, that determination is a majority against Rava who holds that it’s not applicable in this case. Thus, it’s Abaye and the consensus against Rava, so Abaye wins.

    May 21, 2014 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #1039347
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I think you may have misunderstood my question. The original question about Rava is the Maadnei Yom Tov’s question (well I asked it before seeing him so you can call it my question too). My question is on his answer. He is granting that the rule that we pasken like Rava would be applicable here if not for the fact that it’s a rule that only applies to a machlokes of Rava’s own sevara. Now once the MYT is mechadesh this idea, why wouldn’t this idea apply to the other rules of machlokes amoraim? I.e. the only time that R’ Yochanan beats Rav is when they are having their own machlokes not when they are merely paskening a machlokes tannaim.

    May 21, 2014 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #1039348
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    To clarify:

    The machlokes about chov/reshus was originally a machlokes between Rabban Gamliel and R’ Yehoshua. So the machlokes between Rav and R’ Yochanan as well as the machlokes between Abbaye and Rava are merely paskening a machlokes Tannaim. So I don’t see why the rule for Rav vs. R’ Yochanan should apply but the rule for Abbaye vs. Rava should not apply.

    I am specifically asking on the MYT’s answer. It seems that you (Sam2) are giving an alternate answer to the original question, which may in fact have merit, but it doesn’t address my question on the MYT.

    May 22, 2014 12:54 am at 12:54 am #1039349
    pixelate
    Member

    Didn’t see the Madaanei, but what problem does he have with tosafos’ answer? (also, even though we pasken like r’ yochanan, according to rashi on daf 2 in brachos, we actually do according to RYBL, tefilos b’emtza lol)

    May 22, 2014 2:58 am at 2:58 am #1039350
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Pixelate:

    The Maadnei Yom Tov is asking on Tosafos’s question. Ain Hachi Nami Tosafos’s answer would answer the question if it ever was a question in the first place. Also Tosafos’s answer doesn’t help for R’ Amram; it only helps for Tosafos’s question at the end.

    Regarding your second point that was gufa one of the reasons why Tosafos rejected Rashi’s pshat.

    May 22, 2014 3:03 am at 3:03 am #1039351
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Sam2:

    I forgot to point out that the Maadnei Yom Tov also says that Rava wins against R’ Yochanan because he is basra, in which case your answer wouldn’t help.

    May 22, 2014 3:10 am at 3:10 am #1039352
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Why is it a Kasha? We actually do Pasken that it is Reshus, although it was accepted as a Chov and we may not drop it.

    As for the Chiluk, perhaps the difference may lie in the reason for Paskenning like Rava or Rebbi Yochanan. Rava is considered Sinai and we assume he is coming from someplace. When we already have the Shittos layed out Rava and Abaye are both equal. The reason for being Machria like Rebbi Yochanan is not because of a specific strength. Ad Kan my speculation.

    May 22, 2014 3:32 am at 3:32 am #1039353
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “Why is it a Kasha?”

    The kashya is that Tosafos claims that reshus/chov and semicha cannot be taluy zeh bazeh because if they were it would come out that R’ Yochanan holds chov and we would pasken like R’ Yochanan over Rav, yet in reality we do pasken that it’s reshus. But if Rava holds that it’s a reshus then we would pasken that it’s a reshus even if R’ Yochanan held that it’s a chov, so Tosafos’s premise seems to be problematic.

    May 22, 2014 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #1039354
    –
    Participant

    the rule that Rav vs. R’ Yochanan halacha keR’ Yochanan would pasken that maariv is in fact a chov

    The rule only applies when the gemara brings down the disagreement.

    May 23, 2014 3:40 am at 3:40 am #1039355
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “The rule only applies when the gemara brings down the disagreement.”

    An interesting suggestion but Tosafos and the Rosh clearly assume otherwise. And it doesn’t answer my question on the Maadnei Yom Tov (which you might not have been trying to do).

    May 25, 2014 2:40 am at 2:40 am #1039356
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Over Shabbos I saw that the Penei Yehoshua also asks this kashya on Tosafos and leaves off tzarich iyun.

    May 28, 2014 2:27 am at 2:27 am #1039357
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “Rava is considered Sinai and we assume he is coming from someplace.”

    It’s just the opposite. See the ???? ???? Horayos 14a that Abbaye was Sinai and Rava was Oker Harim. He gufa asks why we pasken like Rava over Abbaye if Sinai is adif.

    September 10, 2014 12:42 am at 12:42 am #1039358
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Haleivi:

    I saw that R’ Ovadia Yosef says like you that perhaps the reason why we pasken like Rava over Abbaye is that Rava was sinai. (Though that doesn’t necessarily mean that your answer is correct, and as I pointed out, the ???? ???? says the opposite.)

    September 10, 2014 2:25 am at 2:25 am #1039359
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    A potential support for your answer:

    There is a debate as to whether the halacha follows Rabba or Rav Yosef. The Ritzba for example would pasken like Rav Yosef because Rav Yosef was sinai and Rabba was oker harim. Aaaiii, in the Gemara in Berachos (12b) Rabba holds that if you say hakel hakadosh during the aseres yemei teshuva you are not yotzei while Rav Yosef holds that are yotzei, and the Gemara explicitly says ?????? ????! But a closer look would reveal that the machlokes there was already a machlokes tannaim. Actually, come to think of it, what I just said neither adds to or detracts from your hesber. All it does is provide potential support for the Maadnei Yom Tov’s answer.

    September 11, 2014 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #1039360
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    There is a machlokes Tannaim as to how much of kerias shema requires kavana. Rabba paskens like R’ Akiva and Rava paskens like R’ Meir. Tosafos says that the halacha follows R’ Meir’s position because Rava is basraa. So this would be an example of where even though it was already a machlokes Tannaim, we don’t throw the klalei hapsak of machlokes amoraim out the window. This would also fit in with your hesber (Haleivi) because the reason to pasken like Rava over Rabba is that he is basraa, not that it’s sinai vs. oker harim. But again it doesn’t prove anything.

    November 4, 2014 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #1039362
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    It actually doesn’t really make sense to pasken a machlokes Amoraim based on sinai adif. Just because he knows more Tannaic statementswe should pasken like him? If he knows a relevant Mishnah/Braisa/Tosefta let him bring a Ta Shema and if his opponent has no answer then the case is closed. But if the Sinai has no raya there shouldn’t be any reason to pasken like him.

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