Abortion Case

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  • #2037219

    jackk – i loved that long post of yours

    #2037255
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Just to illustrate, imagine you’re in the 1980s, and you have a shailoh of pikuach nefesh. You want to know what to do, and either decision will be dangerous. Would you prefer to ask rav moshe or the tzitzis Eliezer?

    #2037247
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    “religion” as a separate entity from state has no place in a jewish hashkofa. The sanhedrin sat in the lishkas hagaziz next to the azara, because laws and mandates must be in congruence with and ultimately an expression of the ratzon Hashem. Goyim have a mitzvah to make dinin, laws that are good in the eyes of Hashem. They also have a mitzvah not to kill, and they are charged with enforcing the other 6 mitzvos.

    If we daven “lesaken olan benalchus shakai” and “vehaya Hashem lemelech al kol haaretz”, and wish for His name to not be disgraced, how can one say “it’s a civil rights issue, not a religious one”. I don’t understand how otherwise religious people can make these statements, banishing Torah to the keren zavis, relegating it to what we do in synagogue and rituals, and maybe our personal norals….if we believe fully that our religion is correct, not just “our Truth” but THE truth, binding on all mankind, how can we comfort ourselves in an attempt to save face with the liberals? Are we to be ashamed of our emunah? We don’t have to proselytize; we have a mesorah, but to feel apathetic or worse…to agree with the promoters of licentiousness that advocate for abortion…it makes me recoil in disgust.

    Reb E, why is the amount of seforin one posek writes determine his authority? He was a posek, one of 100 or so prominent figures in the mid 20th century. He wasn’t rav shlomo zalman in eretz yisroel, or rav Moshe in America – nobody in halacha circles will equate the two; rav moshe (as heard from rabbi leibel willliger) said that nobody is on the level in our time to argue with him, besides rav elyashiv. Of course if anyone else who wasn’t the quintessence of humility that was rav moshe had said that, we’d say it’s arrogant, but it’s along the lines of “haika ana” that rav huna said in response to the gemara that said that when rebbe was niftar, humility ceased to exist. It’s about being aware of one’s self, and attributing it all to Hashem, and not your own accomplishments or independent abilities.

    #2037244
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “The velt has accepted Rav Moshe’s Psak on abortion.”

    If by velt you mean you personally, then you MIGHT be correct (I doubt you’re even correct on that see insult thread).
    If you mean the Frum society, then you are completely incorrect.

    Granted I cant convince you, since you havent encountered anyone in such a situation but here is some food for thought:
    Pick up ANY medical halacha sefer, they all go on a long arichus on the subject. Obviously every individual case needs to be judged individually. (always true but especially here). If you really think in practice “the velt” follows R’ Moshe why does every modern sefer eg R” Zilbershtein, R’ Asher Weiss all still discuss it? These are practical halachik teshuvos, not stam l’hagdil Torah. R’ Moshe was nifter over 30 years ago. If you are right Any modern shaeila on abortion should be: ” Already paskened see Ig”m”

    #2037227
    ujm
    Participant

    jackk, the idea is to ban abortion as close to altogether as possible. Mississippi felt this is the furthest that’ll pass muster under the courts, currently. Ideally they’d just ban it almost always, regardless of number of weeks.

    #2037283
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Under the circumstances which the Tzitz Eliezer ztz’l indicates l’a, not wishing it on anyone, one has on whom to rely on.

    #2037288
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    We follow in many things the Chasam Sofer and not Reb Moshe ztz’l e.g. mechitza and tefila betzibur.

    #2037301
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Avira. “but it’s along the lines of “haika ana” that ‘rav huna’ said in response to the gemara that said that when rebbe was niftar, humility ceased to exist.”

    The gemora says to count the number of letters of a Sefer Torah by bringing it, so if an error is made, I will prove it directly. If was not Rav Huna but Rav Yosef:

    תלמוד בבלי מסכת סוטה דף מט עמוד ב
    משמת רבי – בטלה ענוה ויראת חטא. אמר ליה רב יוסף לתנא: לא תיתני ענוה, דאיכא
    אנא

    #2037312
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Avira
    ““religion” as a separate entity from state has no place in a Jewish hashkofa.”

    That’s true from a halachic standpoint, not legal one.
    YOU were the one who quoted an argument that “Goyim say…” If your response to the argument was well halacha argues, that would be that. Needless to say in an argument where goyim say one hting and halacha says another, there is no argument. But you replied to the Goyim’s argument with a logical one “That argument is not only evil, vut very unintelligent ” NOT a haalchic one.
    To which I pointed out that your response did not automatically hold true.

    Note: Nowhere in my comments did I make a halachic argument one way or the other. The discussion is way above my paygrade, the discussion isnt new leading poskim have spoken., and contiue to address it as situations arise.

    I just commented on a few errors in logic you made,
    Plus of course replied to the OP whose comment was more wishful thinking than fact

    As for R’ Moshe being the final say in psak, you don’t actually think this is true? There are plenty of cases where “The velt” hasnt accepted R” Moshe timers comes to light. My father saw R’ Bluth Z”l leave early at a wedding, he asked him if he made Sheva Berachos (They new each other from MTJ, R’ Moshe holds should say make Sheva berachos OC 1:56) He said “The olam isnt noheg like that” and he was a close talmid.

    #2037363
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    The gaon also didn’t change the established minhagim of Lita for the most part, even though he was on the level of the rishonim – I’m not talking about minhag oilam, I’m talking about accepting the psak regarding a new issue that there’s no established practice. No community historically engaged in infanticide.

    I was saying both a rational and a halachik argument; goyim are supposed to keep mitzvos that are largely understandable through honest reasoning. You’re right that i meant chazakah dehashta btw….wrote the wrong one. Also, legally I’m no expert, but it doesn’t matter what American law in itself would have to say if we are compelled to advocate the halachikally ordained position, even if it would mean making otherwise weak legal arguments on behalf of that cause. As it happens to be, it seems to me that roe v wade was a very politically motivated issue, with no legal precedent.

    #2037364
    jackk
    Participant

    ujm,

    Thanks for the answer but totally banning abortion is not the goal of the republicans. If it was, they would have done it already in the republican controlled states.
    15 Weeks in Mississippi is arbitrary. They could have said 10 or 3.

    The republicans will always have (non-halachik) exceptions because in truth even republicans don’t really believe that all abortions should be banned in America.

    #2037405
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Another one is bima beamtza where one is not allowed to daven in a shul that does not have the bima in the middle which is required so that everyone should hear the reading of the Torah equally. This is the ruling of 100 Rabonim at Mihalowitz in 1866 even if will require davening individually Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur.

    #2037419
    ujm
    Participant

    Jack, the Republican States like Mississippi WOULD ban abortion almost completely, starting from Week 1 of pregnancy, IF they thought there was a chance the courts wouldn’t overturn that law. Since they know there’s no chance the courts would let such a law stand, they’re trying to implement laws with the maximum ban feasible that the courts will let stand.

    #2037425
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Reb E, comparing rav moshe to the chasam sofer is very reasonable; there the chidush is that rav Moshe could be compared to him, not the other way around. Also thank you for pointing out that it was rav yosef and not rav huna – my mistake

    #2037480
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    By Nevardak they said ich bin garnisht, I am nothing. So a bachur came to the yeshiva and said so. He was told you are not at that level yet. However, in Slabadka they emhasized the potential of a Jew being able to elevate himself as Yosef’s dream shteiging, climbing from the ground to the heavens according to the explanation of the Ksav Sofer. This could have been the argument between Beis Shamai and Beis Hilel by Chanuka whether to increase or decrease the number lit.

    #2037477
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Where was the humility of Rav Yosef? The meforshim say that when one says that he is humble without any hargasha, feeling of greatness is true humility.

    #2037481
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Chasam Sofer explains what we say, I should not stumble and my friends rejoice. So he asks, how can the friends be happy on his mistake? He answers that they are happy that he did not stay by his mistake because they were there at the right time to correct him. So one asks Hashem that they should not need to correct him and rejoice because he will not make a mistake.

    #2037495

    I humbly suggest we let nonjews to figure it out on their own. Extremists on both sides are not our good friends: neither those who matir asurim, nor those who Asur matirim. There are many less divisive issues where we can contribute positively to the public debate: education, hesed, unity of Hashem..

    #2037549
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    If SCOTUS decides to overturn RvW, we had better daven for an extremely socialist government to support all those thousands of new babies so that they don’t get killed by their mothers, nor grow up to be violent criminals.

    #2037587
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    So… We get to play god and decide who is better off alive, and who is better off dead. We can kill defenseless babies because they’re a financial strain or because they’ll end up becoming criminals.

    Wow.

    #2037616
    jackk
    Participant

    ujm,

    I disagree.

    If republican’s will make laws that completely ban all abortions without any exceptions starting from one week , there will be a rebellion within the republican party. There are millions of republican’s that want abortion to be allowed early in the pregnancy and also that there be exceptions for social reasons.

    Even many religious republicans who want stricter restrictions on abortion are not in favor of a complete ban on it .

    I guess time will tell. If SCOTUS overturns Roe V Wade do the republican states start banning all abortions without exception or not.

    I am not familiar with the teachings of the Ovdey Avoda Zara, but do you know where the hard liners are basing this complete ban on abortion ? Does the new testament have a line about it?

    #2037641
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “So… We get to play god and decide who is better off alive, and who is better off dead…”

    No we can’t, and nobody here suggested we should. We must evaluate each case independently with a very competent Rav. If there was a way to legislate that abortion is only allowed with the approval of a qualified orthodox Rabbi, that would be my vote (I imagine yours too)

    #2037695
    huju
    Participant

    Since ujm has given me permission to discuss constitutional law, I will raise this question:

    Halacha requires abortion to save the mother’s life. So if the Mississippi law is upheld, and a pregnant Jewish woman develops a fatal medical problem after 15 weeks of pregnancy, and abortion would save her life, the Mississippi law would prohibit the woman’s free exercise of her religion. This poses two issues:

    1. Would the right to free exercise of religion prevail over the Mississippi statute?

    2. And if so, and a non-Jewish woman were in the same situation as the Jewish woman in my example, would she be denied equal protection of the law, because the Jewish woman’s life can be saved, but the non-Jewish woman’s life cannot?

    This problem strikes me as a major problem to the Mississippi statute, or any similar statute.

    #2037700
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    charliehall,

    “Fetuses are not bables”

    You must have a problem with every pregnancy book ever published. Pregnant women have babies in their wombs, and if that makes you squeamish then no matter your position you are addressing abortion with intellectual dishonesty. It’s telling how a fetus is denied the status of “baby” only when he or she is not wanted. Classic dehumanization.

    #2037701
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Yserbius123,

    “we had better daven for an extremely socialist government to support all those thousands of new babies so that they don’t get killed by their mothers, nor grow up to be violent criminals.”

    Thanks for the masterclass on casual racism. I guess this means your support for abortion goes beyond ubiquitin’s desire to protect cases that are halachically sanctioned, and into the realm of which humans deserve to exist on this planet and which don’t?

    #2037739
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    As CJ Roberts said (paraphrasing) “since the original 24 weeks was arbitrary, why can’t a woman just make her (abortion) decision within 15 weeks”?? We can retain Roe v Wade but just substitute one arbitrary time limit for another since we are not dealing with a constitutionally guaranteed “right” (at least from the perspective of 5 or 6 justices).

    #2037775
    Health
    Participant

    Oh Jackk, -“The republicans will always have (non-halachik) exceptions because in truth even republicans don’t really believe that all abortions should be banned in America.”

    This make sense.
    I don’t think the States & Federal government will ever follow the Halacha until Moshiach comes.
    But why in the World do we Support Abortions?
    By this I mean tax dollars for Planned Parenthood.
    Also Courts forcing insurance coverage for Abortions, whether Medical or Surgical.
    This got to stop!
    If you want an Abortion – pay for it yourself.
    This IMHO will Stop a lot of these Abortions, when it’s coming out of your Pocket!

    #2037916

    Avram > Pregnant women have babies

    You probably have outdated books in your house. Current use is “pregnant people”, so you’ll have to burn your books soon. Highest disregard for women I ever saw …

    #2038238
    BY1212
    Participant

    Avira, I actually am abhorred personally by the concept of abortion after the child has self awareness and can feel pain – at whenever point that is.

    That being said, if a major halachik posek has a shita which has not been shown to be a ta’us, it becomes very difficult to argue from halocho that something is clear cut assur. As great as r midge was, we simply don’t pasken based on my rov is greater than yours. If someone in shomayin is going to rely on the tzitz eliezer – so long that he is not rabbi shopping my bet is he is in good standing.

    What seems to me more relevant here is under what circumstances the tzitz eliezer was mattir and if any comparison can be made btwn his heter and the agenda if the crazies on the left who see zero moral problem w abortion whatsoever.

    Remember, the tzitz eliezer was living in a time when even the left was advocating (at least publicly…) that abortions should be legal and rare.

    #2038262
    BY1212
    Participant

    R’E – it must be noted that R Waldenberg does not subscribe at all to the wanton scorn for human life so prevalent amongst the abortion fanatics. He is only mattir in circumstances where the baby is going to suffer terribly due to disease r”l or the family will not be able to cope with a down syndrome baby or something to that effect. There is nothing in his teshuvos that remotely resembles that recklessness that people treat human life with bc of a hampering of a career decision etc. There is no zeicher in his psak of the rishus ‘a woman’s right to choose’. He is only mattir in very specific circumstances where the woman or rather family, will find it impossible to cope. (R Moshe argues even there).

    You should frame the machlokes more clearly and not leave the false impression that the is a zeicher in halocho to the rishus called a woman’s right to choose. It simply doesn’t exist.

    Avira – if tzitz eliezer is to modernish for you how about r Moshe shternbuch of the Aydoo charaydis. He is mattir when a woman’s mental health could be compromised ad kdai kach r”l that she would consider suicide.

    #2038289
    KGN
    Participant

    “Life, Liberty, and The Pursuit of Happiness”

    -Life comes before the other two.

    #2038291
    KGN
    Participant

    Roe V. Wade was a case where Roe was told to lie about being forced to get pregnant (I’m being appropriate here). The actual person (Roe) regretted the whole court case later in life. The moral decline of America (in the area of taking a life) started because of dishonesty.

    I can’t see how any Frum Yid could support the Pro-Abortion side of Roe V. Wade and all the issues it’s caused.

    #2038292
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    I never said that the tzitz Eliezer was the least bit modern: chas veshalom! He was a big tzadik. There are many esteemed poskim who are very not modern who still are not rav moshe, including rav moshe shternbuch. Also, it’s not clear that rav moshe would argue on the psak you are attributing to rav shternbuch, since he’s matir in pikuach nefesh. As an aside, I’ve heard of such a suicide related psak, but do you know where rav shternbuch writes that? I have my doubts that he said so, but not for any modern/traditional issue, but I’m not dismissing it out of hand either.

    #2038294
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    BY1212, thank you for showing knowledge and understanding on the subject and as the many different circumstances determine the halacha, one should ask their LOR before turning to action.

    #2038304
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    BY1212

    ” called a woman’s right to choose. It simply doesn’t exist.”

    That isn’t limited to abortion.

    A woman or man, has many “rights” that are halachically limited, what to eat, say, hear wear etc etc

    #2038421
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The woman has a right to choose within the confines of the Torah as the well as the man.

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