May 29, 2017 11:28 am at 11:28 am #1287547
Lesschumras, I suspect the cases of mamzeirus are uncommon. Even in those cases, it’s certainly better for a Jewish child to be raised by Jews than to be raised by non-Jews.May 29, 2017 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #1287898Avram in MDParticipant
I’m not an abortion advocate but please don’t equate a fetus with a person. I may be wrong but doesn’t halacha treat the fetus differently in that if it dies less than 30 days after birth, there is no Shiva?
Not sitting shiva for an infant under 30 days has nothing to do with personhood. A baby from a miscarriage or stillbirth is still given a name and a bris (if male and possible), and is buried in a Jewish cemetery. And Jews certainly hold that a fetus has a soul (hence the naming).May 29, 2017 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #1288194
Joe -“Health: How’s bringing up goyishe children preferable to bringing up yiddishe kinder?”
Because almost always, the kid will remain Frum. The reason being, especially when you adopt very young, the kid doesn’t know any other way!
Essentially you become like his/hers real parents. This isn’t the case when you adopt a Jewish kid.May 29, 2017 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #1288210
Health, you could adopt a yiddishe kindd as an infant.May 29, 2017 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #1288214
Yehuda, I think the scenario LC was referring to was when the adopted Jewish child is ready to marry, there’s a problem being sure he/she isn’t engaged to a birth sibling or other forbidden marriage partner.May 29, 2017 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #1288255👑RebYidd23Participant
Wouldn’t that problem remain even if you didn’t adopt the child?May 30, 2017 12:06 am at 12:06 am #1288291Lilmod UlelamaidParticipant
I may be wrong about this, but I thought I remembered learning way back when I was in high school that the reason that abortion is permitted when the mother’s life is in danger is that the baby is considered a “rodef”, and you are allowed to kill a “rodef” even when the “rodef” is not choosing to be a rodef. I also learned that this would even apply to a toddler who is pointing a gun at someone, c”v.May 30, 2017 12:06 am at 12:06 am #1288295Lilmod UlelamaidParticipant
“Lesschumras, I suspect the cases of mamzeirus are uncommon. Even in those cases, it’s certainly better for a Jewish child to be raised by Jews than to be raised by non-Jews.”
Good point! I always wondered about that when people talk about its being better to adopt a goyish baby because there are no mamzeirus issues. Even if the child is a mamzer, he is still a Jewish baby with a heilige neshama who needs a home.
I do understand that someone might be hesitant to adopt a baby with a “problem”, but it bothers me that many people seem to just write off the possibility of adopting a mamzer. And this is despite the fact that people will adopt kids with all sorts of other problems. I think it’s because there is a stigma attached to mamzeirim, and I think we need to try to get rid of that. The kid is just as holy as any other kid and has as much potential to be good Jew and maybe even a tzaddik.
All it really means is that he can’t get married, and there are even halachic ways around that.May 30, 2017 10:55 am at 10:55 am #1288397
Joe -“Health, you could adopt a yiddishe kindd as an infant.”
No one is saying – You can’t! I was explaining why some people prefer adopting Goyim instead of Yiddin.
People have posted problems with adopting Jews above. Another potential problem with adopting Jewish kids is that they can, later on in life, seek out their real parents. This scenario is very unlikely when adopting a Goyishe kid!May 30, 2017 10:55 am at 10:55 am #1288399
A mamzer can marry another mamzer. But, as said, the concern might be about not knowing who an adopted Jewish many cannot marry since you don’t know who his/her family is.May 30, 2017 11:40 am at 11:40 am #1288416🐵 ⌨ GamanitParticipant
Most adoptions these days are open or semi-open which means you would know almost anything you need to know by asking the birth mother who is in regular contact with the adoptive parents. What is wrong with adoptive children seeking out their birth families? Many children have wonderful relationships with both birth and adoptive families.May 30, 2017 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #1288537
Gamanit – “What is wrong with adoptive children seeking out their birth families? ”
And what is wrong with parents raising their own children?!?
If they gave them up for adoption because of a lack of money, there are plenty of extremely poor families.June 1, 2017 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #1288746chabadgalParticipant
yes, if there is a mother or child can survive not both issue, call a rav, but the mother has priority. otherwise, the fetus is considered alive.June 1, 2017 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #1288750chabadgalParticipant
LU- yes, but the issue, is, there is sometimes no way of knowing if the child is a mamzer. when you adopt a non jewish child, you know for sure there are no issues.
health – why is it more unlikely for the non jewihs kid to search for birth parents than the jewish one?June 2, 2017 12:37 am at 12:37 am #1288838
As Gamanit pointed out, it’s very unusual to have no clue who the birth mother is. The birth father is a little trickier, but in many cases, it’s a non-Jew. Even if the child was left on the doorstep, he can marry a convert. Likewise, a mamzer can marry a convert (though the children will be mamzerim).
Health, the term “real parents” is offensive to adoptive parents. There are plenty of reasons other than lack of money that birth mothers give up their children. Illness is one.
I think in many cases, children seek out their birth parents because their adoptive parents weren’t honest with them. From the time we brought them home, we told our kids that we had adopted them. They’ve never expressed much interest in finding their birth mother. I know of other adopted children who weren’t told until they were older, with bad consequences.June 2, 2017 1:30 am at 1:30 am #1288848
YY -“Health, the term “real parents” is offensive to adoptive parents”
I used that term because it’s shorter than saying “biological parents”!
Take a chill pill 😁!June 2, 2017 1:31 am at 1:31 am #1288847
CG -“health – why is it more unlikely for the non jewihs kid to search for birth parents than the jewish one?”
Simply, because at the time that kids would start wondering about this – the kid has been a Jew for many years.June 2, 2017 1:31 am at 1:31 am #1288846
Yehuda, how many did you adopt and were they each done at separate times? Do you have a mix of adoptees and birth children?June 2, 2017 10:45 am at 10:45 am #1288899
Health, the common term is birth parents, which has only one more letter that real parents.
Joseph, for privacy reasons, I don’t want to go into more details.June 2, 2017 10:46 am at 10:46 am #1288905
Most adoptions are open adoptions?
As a Family Law Attorney for approx. 40 years in Connecticut and an adoptive parent, I can tell you that most adoptions in the USA are NOT open adoptions. Most adoptive parents do not want birth parents interfering in the new family. There are registries where adoptees and birth parents can register an interest in communication, but it is voluntary.
I can tell you that the last thing the Department of Families and Children (CT–similar to CPS elsewhere) wants is for a parent who has had there parental rights terminated by the court to be involved in that child’s life. The majority of adoptions in the USA are of children placed by these state agencies.
As for foreign adoptions by Americans, the birth mothers are generally unknown and there is no further contact once the child leaves the birth country.June 2, 2017 11:33 am at 11:33 am #1288913
I can’t speak for Yehudayona,
Mrs. CTL and I have 7 children. We are the birth parents to 5 and adoptive parents to 2.
They were NOT adopted at the same time. They are about 9 years apart in age. One was a domestic adoption. We were approached by the doctor. We never met the birth mother, but had her name and date/place of our daughter’s birth.
Our daughter knew she was our child by choice from the time she was old enough to comprehend what adoption mean.
When she became engaged, she sought ut her birth mother for the sole reason of getting medical history that might affect future offspring. The talked on the phone and by email a few times. Neither had a desire for a continuing relationship.
Our younger adopted daughter was adopted by us in China. She knew she was adopted as soon as she could did differences in skin color and racial/facial features. There are no records of who her birth parents are. During the time she was born China had a one child law. Women giving birth to a second child would leave it outside the orphanage during the dark of night so as to not be discovered by the authorities and be fined and/or imprisoned.
In our town of 35,000 we know more than30 girls adopted in Chin during that time period. None will ever find their birth parents…unless there is universal DNA registry for 8 billion people on this earth.June 2, 2017 12:12 pm at 12:12 pm #1288938
CTL, is your first adopted child of Jewish birth? How did she, if not, and your second handle their choice of Judaism continuance at bas mitzvah?June 2, 2017 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #1288984
Not Jewish at birth. Raised as Jewish from near birth, never questioned not continuing as an observant Jew after Bat Mitzvah age
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