September 23, 2020 9:22 am at 9:22 am #1903671
Is it muttar for Goyim to have abortions on demand?September 23, 2020 11:16 am at 11:16 am #1903804Sam KleinParticipant
The goyim are raised and brought up with the 10 commandments (the aseres hadibros given on har sinai) does it say anywhere in there that abortion is forbidden?
On the other hand we know that all goyim from all religions have the 7 laws from Noach. How about there, does it mention anywhere among the 7 that abortion is forbidden?
If the answers to both questions above are no then from which perspective and for what reason should it be forbidden for a guy to do abortion? As much as it’s a terrible thing to do to a live fetus. And some would consider it Murder even though it has not been born yet.September 23, 2020 11:17 am at 11:17 am #1903809adocsParticipant
NoSeptember 23, 2020 11:17 am at 11:17 am #1903817akupermaParticipant
Its covered by the Shevah mitsvos of the Bnei Noach (Seven mitsvos applicable to non-Jews).
The fact that abortion and infanticide have a long history of acceptability among goyim is irrelevant.September 23, 2020 11:29 am at 11:29 am #1903837
By the Jews, life begins at birth, rov before that will not live, so it is not considered murder, whereas by the goyim, we don’t go after rov as tbe minority do live, so it is considered murder.September 23, 2020 11:45 am at 11:45 am #1903843
SK -“How about there, does it mention anywhere among the 7 that abortion is forbidden?”
Now I understand, when you never learnt any Torah, you’re an Am Haretz.
You can’t learn Torah from the Internet!
Btw, Killing Fetuses is included in Lo Tzrach.
It’s a 5 way argument whether a Jew can do Abortions.
Some say it’s just like Goyim – OSSER!September 23, 2020 11:53 am at 11:53 am #1903857
Sam Klein, the 7 Mitzvos Bnai Noach are general rules. They include at least 77 detailed Laws in their purview. It’s not just the 7 Mitzvos themselves. Each one has codicils (if that’s the right word) and so forth.September 23, 2020 12:20 pm at 12:20 pm #1903861
I have my answer. The gemara in Sanhedrin says they are chayiv misah for abortion.September 23, 2020 12:20 pm at 12:20 pm #1903868
I explained above the reason how can it be that by goyim life is considered before birth whereas by Jews only after birth.September 23, 2020 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #1903905
The Rambam says that you are allowed to abort the fetus to save the mother because it is a radof, maybe holds that there is misah bidei shomayim.September 23, 2020 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #1903908
According to the gamara in sanhedrin, In a scenario that the unborn endangers the mothers life, a goy wouldn’t be allowed to kill the baby and yid would be allowedSeptember 23, 2020 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #1903915
Rodaf does not apply by a goy and we can say who says the mother’s blood is redder than the child.September 23, 2020 2:45 pm at 2:45 pm #1903923MaivinParticipant
you know, you fellows remind me of a famous joke about the briskers, that one of them were wearing a tie, so the other brisker said to them “מאי האי”? so he answered him ‘you have to farshtay, I am choshesh that maybe I am an Amoleiki and then maybe mashiach will come, and will reveal to me that I really am an Amoleiki and thus will be able to be mekayem the mitzvah of killing Amoleik’…
And therefore, I ask you ppl, are you the crazy one’s? or maybe am I the crazy one?
What connection does this have to any of your lives? Are you guys Choshesh B’Sfeik Sfeika that maybe you guys or your spouses are really goyim, and not only that, maybe you are actually one of the שבעת העממים and thus your children will also be חלק מהשבעת העממים and therfore chayev misa?
please be so kind to explain to me the relevance to the above question!!September 23, 2020 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #1903928
The relevance is to voting. Do we have to vote to stop goyim from performing abortions or not?September 23, 2020 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #1903962👑RebYidd23Participant
The law generally does not discriminate.September 23, 2020 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #1903975
motchah11, if something is allowed does not mean it should be done. Forbidden fruit is sweet. The rich will be able to do it anyway where it is allowed but the poor will endanger themselves in alleys with lack of proper hygiene.September 23, 2020 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #1903946
For all those here saying that abortions are murder, the reality of halacha is a lot more complex. Rav Moshe spoke about the issue as did many Rabbonim after him. For a recent example, the American X-tian right wing lobbies supported the Iowa so-called “Heartbeat Bill”. In contrast, the Agudah, with the guidance of the Moetzes, put out a public statement calling it against the Torah.September 23, 2020 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #1904028refoelzeevParticipant
Yserbius123 everyone holds its murder for a goy. It’s a machlokes if it’s murder for yidden, even though all agree it’s assurSeptember 23, 2020 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #1904037
@refoelzeev I don’t believe that’s 100% true. It may be more chamur for a goy, but I’m pretty sure under certain circumstances at certain times it’s still allowed.September 24, 2020 1:12 am at 1:12 am #1904064
“Killing Fetuses is included in Lo Tzrach.”
No it isn’t.September 24, 2020 8:15 am at 8:15 am #1904065
“The gemara in Sanhedrin says they are chayiv misah for abortion.”
The same gemara says they are chayiv misah for petty theft. So by your logic, petty theft is murder.September 24, 2020 8:16 am at 8:16 am #1904066
“According to the gamara in sanhedrin, In a scenario that the unborn endangers the mothers life, a goy wouldn’t be allowed to kill the baby and yid would be allowed”
Wrong. That gemara says that there is nothing permitted to a Jew that is prohibited to a non-Jew. Only the Catholic Church says that the mother can’t abort the fetus; Judaism and Protestant Christians say it is okay.
You need to go back to the Beit Midrash.September 24, 2020 8:17 am at 8:17 am #1904067
“against the torah”
Of course it is. Another example is that Jews are among the most enthusiastic users of in vitro fertilization, and have fought to have it covered by insurance. But for Catholics, it is mass murder, because fertilized embryos are killed as part of the process. We need to fight laws that try to impose Christian doctrine on us.September 24, 2020 8:17 am at 8:17 am #1904068
“Do we have to vote to stop goyim from performing abortions or not?”
In fact, we probably have to NOT vote that way, because we need to have abortions available in the somewhat rare instances where they are halachically mandated for us.
It is a machloket whether we need to vote to force goyim to enact laws consistent with the Noachide commandments. The minhag seems to indicate that the answer is no.September 24, 2020 8:20 am at 8:20 am #1904088
What kind of question is this? The halacha is very clear and there is NO MACHLOKES WHATSOEVER. Killing an unborn baby has exactly the same halachic status as killing a goy. In both cases a yid who does it is exempt from human justice, but must face Hashem’s justice, while a goy who does it must be tried in a court of law, sentenced to death, and executed. This is not some kind of moshol; it means literally that the nations are OBLIGATED to execute all goyishe abortionists. If they don’t do so they are violating the 7 mitzvos themselves.September 24, 2020 8:21 am at 8:21 am #1904091rationalParticipant
When an abortion is permitted, the Tzitz Eliezer recommended it be done by a female Jew. According to his shitah, abortion by a Jewish physician is assur m’drabonon, but by a non-Jew it is assur mid’oraysa. For a female physician the d’rabonons are less severe, and so that would be the preferable method.September 24, 2020 8:23 am at 8:23 am #1904126
CharlieHall: That is a stupid argument. They are chayiv misah for each and every of the 7 Noahide Laws. No one said that theft is murder. I’m sorry you don’t accept the Talmud’s rulings, but I’m fed up with apikorsus.September 24, 2020 10:02 am at 10:02 am #1904139anonymous JewParticipant
There is a theological reason why Catholics not only ban abortion but, given a choice between saving the life of the fetus or the mother , will save the fetus. They believe that only a person who has been baptized can go to heaven. The mother has been baptized, the fetus hasn’t.September 24, 2020 10:03 am at 10:03 am #1904157
The reason is that measurements were not given to a bnei noach, so the smallest theft is like the largest.September 24, 2020 10:59 am at 10:59 am #1904189mkylbParticipant
It is fascinating that so many Orthodox Jews believe that halacha falls on the pro-life side of the abortion debate.
Even a cursory glance at the poskim show that halacha is much more accommodating than many Republican policy proposals. A more in depth limud would probably confuse people even more!
Whilst certainly not ‘pro-choice’ in it’s outlook, halacha is so much more complex than the current political debate.
Frum Jews need to really examine whether their hashkofos are actually informed by halacha, or by the terrifying shift of the community to the political right.September 24, 2020 11:03 am at 11:03 am #1904194
chalie, by goyim as explained above, killing the fetus is included in lo sirtzach.September 24, 2020 11:38 am at 11:38 am #1904211
I usually trust @charliehall’s opinions on matters of politics and halacha, since he is a well known expert and talmid chacham. But I’m wondering what the other tzad is. My understanding is that the current “conservative” approach to abortion is based on Catholic ideology which is much more machmire than frum halacha.
How do your poskim, like the Tzitz Eliezer, shtim with Rav Moshe Feinstein’s famous teshuva on abortion clinics? Or the more recent lobbying of the Agudah (presumably with the guidance of the Moetzes)?September 24, 2020 12:19 pm at 12:19 pm #1904234
The Maharsha says that Pharao picked jewish midwives as the Jews are not responsible for abortions rather than non-jewish ones.September 24, 2020 12:20 pm at 12:20 pm #1904237
My understanding is that the current “conservative” approach to abortion is based on Catholic ideology
Your understanding is wrong. And your understanding of the Catholic position is also wrong, but for different reasons.
How do your poskim, like the Tzitz Eliezer, shtim with Rav Moshe Feinstein’s famous teshuva on abortion clinics?
You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the poskim’s positions. It’s the Tzitz Eliezer who is relatively meikil. Reb Moshe insists on a plain language reading of the Rambam, that abortion IS ALWAYS MURDER, whether it is done by a yid or a goy. The fact that a yid is not executed for it doesn’t make it not murder, it’s just a gezeras hakasuv that this particular kind of murder is not punished by human courts when it is committed by a Jew, but is when it’s committed by a goy.
As I pointed out earlier, this is EXACTLY THE SAME as killing a goy. There is no machlokes at all, that when a goy kills another goy he must be executed, but when a yid kills a goy he is not. Would anyone suggest for even a minute that this means it’s not murder?! Of course it’s murder, and Hashem will punish anyone who does it, but it’s a gezeras hakasuv that human courts are not authorized to do justice in such a case. The same is true for abortion.
The Rambam is also clear that the ONLY circumstances in which it is permitted to kill an unborn baby are the same circumstances in which it is permitted to kill a born baby or an adult — when he is a rodef.September 24, 2020 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #1904296
@Milhouse What teshuva did Reb Moshe say that? The one I saw he calls it “similar to murder” but doesn’t actually call it murder, and still says that it’s necessary at times so the oilom shouldn’t follow the X-tian right wing and ban all clinics.
What does the Moetzes say about your side, since they are very clearly not anti-abortion?
@Reb-Eliezer Sorry, can you be a little more clear? I don’t think we are allowed to paskin from a pasuk like that, though I may be wrong. Is the Maharsha giving a psak halacha l’meisah? Does he say if there’s a difference in how far along the baby is? I seem to recall a gemara that states that there’s an early period of time where the fetus isn’t considered alive.September 24, 2020 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #1904482
The mishnah in Erachin (7,1) says that we don’t wait to kill the mother until the child is born. Explains Rashi that the mother and child is one entity. The Chezkuni Shmos (21,22) says that from here we see that a child is considered a new creation at birth when it comes outside otherwise only money is paid.September 24, 2020 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #1904484
I explained above that the difference between a Jew and a goy is whether we go after rov.September 24, 2020 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #1904488
The Maharsha is in Sanhedrin (57,2) where it says that a ben noach gets killed on uborun (fetus).September 25, 2020 12:47 am at 12:47 am #1904525
Milhouse – Thanks for explaining simple Halacha, so I didn’t have to!
BTW, R. Moshe was concerned that American Laws apply to e/o.
He didn’t care if they made Abortion illegal for Goyim.
But the Goyim aren’t ready to acknowledge there is a difference.
When Moshiac comes, e/o will know that there is a big difference!September 25, 2020 4:50 am at 4:50 am #1904548
I explained above that the difference between a Jew and a goy is whether we go after rov.
Excuse me? Are you seriously trying to suggest that the majority of foetuses are nefalim?! That’s ridiculous. Everyone knows the exact opposite is true.September 25, 2020 9:16 am at 9:16 am #1904572
Even pidyan haben is only at thirty days.September 25, 2020 11:09 am at 11:09 am #1904592
It must be kolu lo chadoshov, until thirty days is a safek whether it lives.September 25, 2020 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #1904690
@Health Wasn’t Rav Moshe’s psak in regards to clinics that serve mostly goyim? What was his response when asked about the halachos of a Ben Noach?September 25, 2020 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #1904700
Yesrbius123 – IDK. Why don’t you tell us?September 27, 2020 4:11 am at 4:11 am #1904954
“Killing an unborn baby has exactly the same halachic status as killing a goy. In both cases a yid who does it is exempt from human justice”
Go ahead and murder a goy and see what happens to you. Don’t try to cite halachah before the judge; he won’t be pleased. Oh, and you won’t believe the anti-Semitism that results. It will be deserved.
“the nations are OBLIGATED to execute all goyishe abortionists”
And also all petty thieves.September 27, 2020 4:12 am at 4:12 am #1904960
“They believe that only a person who has been baptized can go to heaven.”
Wrong.September 27, 2020 4:12 am at 4:12 am #1904962
“And your understanding of the Catholic position is also wrong”
Which Catholic seminary did you attend?
In several countries the Catholic Church has gotten the government to ban ALL abortions under ALL circumstances, and to enforce such a ban: El Salvador, Nicaragua, and Malta. Now, in Malta, a woman who needs an abortion can get to Italy very quickly, but in the other two, women die. That is what much of the so-called pro-life movement wants for the United States.September 27, 2020 4:26 am at 4:26 am #1904970MistykinsParticipant
Xtians (including Catholics) believe abortion is a sin based on the 10 commandments. Almost all are pro-life, based on their belief that Hashem made the decision to put them in that situation.
The rest of the goyim don’t believe in G-d, or just don’t care enough about religion, so they’re aborting children produced out of marriage or born into situations where they don’t have faith to help them through. As a result, they don’t care, anything goes because it’s legal. But I would not want to be judged on their beliefs.September 27, 2020 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #1904947n0mesorahParticipant
We do not hold anything for goyim. There is not much literature on Jews telling non-Jews how to lead their lives. It mostly mentions being kind and humane, to all people.September 30, 2020 1:47 am at 1:47 am #1905628Decency is KeyParticipant
I don’t know why no one made the secular argument for those who aren’t bound by the laws of the Torah.
If man believes that each individual has the inalienable rights of LIFE, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, then the answer is NO. Science has determined that a “fetus” is an unborn child, feels pain from very early on in the pregnancy, and is a LIFE. You cannot terminate someone else’s life without violating their rights. You cannot murder a baby.
Keep in mind that the tenets with regard to the value of a life are basically the same in the Torah.
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