about the protest in yerushalaim

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  • #1250174

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    ” I don’t feel a פחד מות when I walk past a Zionist policeman.”

    I’m just wondering: Do all not-Frum Jews today fall in the category of tzionim in the context that you are talking about? Or do you mean specifically because they are policemen? If so, do all policemen today automatically fall in that category? Most policemen today are just regular Israeli Jews who happened to have grown up as chilonim in Israel and decided to become policemen. Would he consider them to fall in that category? Or was he only talking about the original tzionim – those people who chose to be secular zionists as an ideology and were fighting for a secular state (and fighting against Torah) as opposed to most chilonim of today who are not really tzionim in the same sense?

    #1250798

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    @apushuta yid
    @everyone else too

    As someone who actually LIVES in this country, this is my insight on the matter:

    1. Besides for the fact the army is anti chareidi, and the fact that there are thousands of boys and girls together on bases, the government is now trying to create mixed BATTALIONS. Young women and men in the same group, sleeping together, etc. This is a new update and the dati leumi and mizrachim are also against this and are trying to fight it. Although we are against the army as a whole, this takes things to a new level for someone who is going to go to the army and wants to be any type of religious.

    2. There is a HUGE difference between a protest, and defacing property, being destructive, etc. I don’t beleive the gedolim ever instructed anyone to beat up women, wreck buses, throw tear gas, fire crackers, etc.

    Have you ever seen a protest in the USA? They are not like that. I can tell you right now that the real bnei torah are not the people looking for an excuse to burn garbage cans. Most of the bochurim causing destruction are doing it without the excuse of a protest. There are thousands and thousands of normal people actually doing a protest (as can be seen on a video on YWN news where you can see big rabanim talking to thousands about what a horrible thing this is..etc)

    3. If people think this is a chilul hashem either out of ignorance of what are values are, or ignorance of knowing what a chilul hashem is, that is not YWN news’s problem. You know, people throw out the term chilul hashem. Do you honestly care that much about Hashem’s name to feel that these people are desecrating it? Or do you just ‘feel’ it’s wrong to protest and be so loud?

    4. Come to Israel. If you want to get anything done…you need to protest. Example: bus strikes, garbage strikes for weeks, ummm remember the government promised the settlement of Amona a new settlement…that hasn’t happened. Some families are on a food strike. That’s how you get people to nitce you here. Again I will say there is a huge difference between a protest and being descructive.

    #1250783

    Avi K
    Participant

    Lilmod,

    1. Who are these anonymous poskim? Rav Ovadia (Yechaveh Deah 5:4) says the opposite. Not only that he says that one cannot say “kim li” (I hold like others) as both Rambam (Hilchot Melachim 3:8 – where he says that a violator can even be executed by the government for minor offenses such as failing to make turn when instructed or violating house arrest) and the Mechaber (CM 369:6). Rav Shlomo Ishun even goes so far as to say that if taxes must be raised because of evasion the evaders are guilty of robbery (see העלמת מס by Rav Zalman Baruch Melamed on the Betel yeshiva website).

    2. It think that they were pulling his leg. You and your brother are in good company though. I know an talmid chacham who has never been outside Israel. He actually believed an American who told him that there a red light is only a recommendation and not a law. I, in fact, know a rav whose sons and son-in-law have been in the army and he says the opposite. For that matter, I have a friend who did his miluim making a base kosher for Pesach (this is called מבצע פסח).

    You are correct though that there is much room for improvement. The way to effect that is from within. Thus Rav Tau rebuked MK Smotrich for calling for guys to stop enlisting. The same goes for other areas of society. In fact, Rav Yaakov Ariel explicitly stated that it is a mitzva for those knowledgeable in both Halacha and secular law to become judges.

    3. Many boys stop being frum in many places. Some stop in yeshiva because they are not suited for full-time learning but do not have any other alternatives in Chareidi society.

    #1250785

    takahmamash
    Participant

    Many boys stop being Frum in the army.

    And most don’t.

    Many boys stop being Frum learning in yeshiva. Does that mean learning in yeshiva should be banned as well?

    #1250786

    Avi K
    Participant

    Lilmod, see “How Does the IDF Celebrate Passover?” on the IDF blog. Do you really think that a soldier would dare to bring a roll to the seder right in front of the rav of the base? A soldier brought a ham sandwich onto the base for private use. At first he was given 21 days in the stockade. After a certain radio personality reported it it was reduced to confinement to the base (also not very pleasant). Once a secular officer caught a soldier about to treif up a utensil. He told him that if he did he would be assigned to clean every utensil on the base.As for the “required hashgacha”, not having a Badatz hashgacha does not make it treif. There is no right to compel others to accept chumrot.

    Regarding guys going OTD in the army, guys go OTD in many places. They also became closer in many places. Both the OU and hesder yeshivot have programs in cooperation with the IDF.

    #1250791

    Chortkov
    Participant

    I have had the same questions, LU. I don’t know how far to extend this reservation of the Rav. I don’t think he meant any irreligious Jew. I think it was said directly about the Israeli Government and any representatives thereof. (No, the Health Minister does not fit into the category, in case anybody was wondering).

    #1250982

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Many boys stop being Frum in the army.”

    Tragically, many become not frum and have never been within 100 miles of an army base.

    #1250996

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “you are not allowed to follow the Medina’s laws when they go against the Torah.”

    So, we are back to where we started. A Rosh yeshiva stated that merely registering is againt the torah and instructed his talmidim not to do even that. The dicussion I am interested in is where is the hetter to burn garbage in the streets, block major highways, commit assault and battery against citizens trying to go about their day, everything else I could care less. I am not getting involved in a disagreement amongst Roshei Yeshiva.

    #1251029

    Avi K
    Participant

    Apushatayid, not only that, the do those things in their own neighborhoods. This shows that the protests are not against the IDF per se but an attempt to take over.

    #1251021

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    YW Moderator-29,

    To the OP: I closed the other thread. If you don’t like the topic or the contents, why in the world did you bring it back?

    Hee hee.

    #1251039

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There has not been alot of Torah written about running a government in a modern society, In fact almost none.

    I think most people agree , Israel needs an army (Most countries need an Army , unless you are some isolated Army in the middle of the Ocean ) There is no concensus exactly how to go from there

    #1251054

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Many boys stop being Frum learning in yeshiva. Does that mean learning in yeshiva should be banned as well?

    Becoming irreligious can happen anywhere. Certain experiences are causes for people to come irreligious. Those who go off the derech in Yeshivas are certainly not of because the place or experience. The army, however, is a place full of מכשולים. I shudder to think how blind you have to be to consider this comparison rational.

    I don’t know why posters are grasping at straws about the army. Isn’t it blindingly obvious that it is detrimental to your Avoidas Hashem to be in the Israeli Defence Forces? Can anyone say with a straight face that they think it will be a positive influence on their Avoidas Hashem?

    #1251086

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Many boys stop being Frum in the army.”

    Tragically, many become not frum and have never been within 100 miles of an army base.

    A hugely larger portion of frum people joining the army become not frum R”L, than those who were frum and never within 100 miles of an army base who became not frum R”L.

    #1251100

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LessChumras: “You keep conflating registration with being drafted and claiming it is assur. Do you realize that it is only one Rav who is creating the a problem? If registration is assur, how do you explain the past 40 years all the roshai yeshivas who allowed, and continue to allow, their students to register?”

    Lesschumras – you are completely misquoting/misunderstanding me. I never even discussed whether or not it’s assur to register. I explained what I wrote 3 times. I will try again.

    I was pointing out (in response to someone else’s comment) that the government is</> doing something assur. The assur thing that they are doing is having an army that is not run according to halacha and drafting Jewish boys to an army that is not run according to halacha. They do draft Jewish boys to the army. I don’t know how anyone can deny that.

    #1251101

    Chortkov
    Participant

    ZD: There has not been alot of Torah written about running a government in a modern society, In fact almost none.

    What was this in reference to?

    The main reason the Poskim haven’t written extensively about running a modern government is probably because (a) it’s never been Nogea; there has never been anyone Frum (Read: Observant to Hashem and the Torah) in a governing position over Klal Yisroel; (b) Halacha may not permit running a modern day government.

    Enough Torah has been written, however, about going to the Army.

    #1251108

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “3. Many boys stop being frum in many places. Some stop in yeshiva because they are not suited for full-time learning but do not have any other alternatives in Chareidi society.”

    Top boys like my brother don’t stop being Frum in Yeshiva.

    They were not pulling his leg about the chametz. This was clear from the way he found out.

    The fact that boys can go to hesder has nothing to do with my point. I was talking about what the government does wrong and not about what the response should be. The government is machshil Jewish boys by sending them to regular army. Most Israeli boys do not go to Hesder, so the government is doing something wrong by sending them to an army that is not run according to halacha.

    I was referring to all boys – not just Yeshiva boys. All of these boys are Jewish boys, whether they are Yeshiva boys, Dati but not Yeshiva boys or not Dati. None of them belong in that kind of environmnet.

    Most Dati boys do not go to hesder, and a very large percentage (I think it may be most, but if not, it is certainly a large number) stop being Dati.

    Also, this was not my point at all, but the Hesder system is not a perfect solution. It is a better alternative to going to the army straight, but it is also problematic. The Roshei Yeshivas of Hesder Yeshivas have had many issues with things that go on. The boys have been forced to be oiver on issurim such as kol isha and other tznius issues.

    #1251115

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “You are correct though that there is much room for improvement. The way to effect that is from within. Thus Rav Tau rebuked MK Smotrich for calling for guys to stop enlisting. The same goes for other areas of society. In fact, Rav Yaakov Ariel explicitly stated that it is a mitzva for those knowledgeable in both Halacha and secular law to become judges.”

    Again, my point was not about what the response should be. I happen to disagree with you on that, but that wasn’t the point. My point was simply that the government is doing something wrong. Apparently you do agree with that point.

    One’s disagreement with the way that people deal with the government should not blind them to the fact that the government is doing something wrong (by having an army that is not run according to halacha and drafting people to that army).

    #1251118

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Shopping – +1 for your excellent post.

    Regarding the chillul Hashem issue, as I stated previously, the problem is the way it was reported on YWN. You wrote that one can see on YWN that thousands of people were protesting civilly. If one only glances at the headlines on YWN, he does not see that. He sees headlines describing the protesters in extremely libelous terms.

    #1251189

    Avi K
    Participant

    Yekke,
    1. On the contrary, joining the IDF is avodat Hashem.
    2. On the contrary, much has been written. The Tzitz Eliezer wrote a set called “Hilchot Medina”. Rav Herzog wrote several books. There have been many articles in “Techumin” and other Torah journals.

    Lilmod, fighting our enemies is a Torah obligation. So is engaging in civilian rescue (e.g. people who get lost while on tyulim). While there is much that needs to be fixed (including in each one of us) there is much that is done according to Halacha. In fact, Rav Asher Weiss mentioned in several shiurim that he receievd questions from the IDF that were relevant to the shiur.

    #1251244

    takahmamash
    Participant

    Lilmod:

    Most Dati boys do not go to hesder, and a very large percentage (I think it may be most, but if not, it is certainly a large number) stop being Dati.

    You throw these accusations out, I’m sure you must have some verifiable statistics to back up your allegations. I’d love to see them.

    You wrote that one can see on YWN that thousands of people were protesting civilly.

    Blocking roads is against the law. It is not “protesting civilly.”

    Yekke2:

    Isn’t it blindingly obvious that it is detrimental to your Avoidas Hashem to be in the Israeli Defence Forces? Can anyone say with a straight face that they think it will be a positive influence on their Avoidas Hashem?

    Unlike the vast majority of the arm-chair experts commenting here, I two of my children actually were in the IDF. They are still dati. It was a positive experience for them and for others in their respective units. I believe it was a positive influence on their Avodat Hashem, and I say that with a smiling face.

    #1251266

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Avi K:1. On the contrary, joining the IDF is avodat Hashem.
    2. On the contrary, much has been written. The Tzitz Eliezer wrote a set called “Hilchot Medina”. Rav Herzog wrote several books. There have been many articles in “Techumin” and other Torah journals.

    Joining the IDF is most certainly not Avoidas Hashem. Do you think that something can be considered Rotzon Hashem if it involves putting oneself in a situation where adherence to Shulchan Aruch is impossible?

    #1251332

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Unlike the vast majority of the arm-chair experts commenting here, I two of my children actually were in the IDF. They are still dati. It was a positive experience for them and for others in their respective units. I believe it was a positive influence on their Avodat Hashem, and I say that with a smiling face.

    I’ve written an answer to your post three times and all three times I’ve deleted it.

    Kol hakavod to your sons.

    I’d like to point out one thing in response to your comment: The fact that a person withstands a nisayon is not a heter to enter the nisayon in the first place. Nor is the fact that one person withstands the nisayon a reason to suggest that there is no nisayon at all.

    #1251480

    Joseph
    Participant

    Civil disobedience is an acceptable form of protest in democracies, even when it entails disobeying civil law.

    #1251489

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Please tell us what Posek allows for Genevas Zman for someone unrelated to the protest

    and What posek allows for actual genevas , like someone who because of the street being block is late to work and misses pay or someone being block and is late getting home to the babysitter and has to pay them extra money

    #1251491

    mw13
    Participant

    Avi K:
    The Tzitz Eliezer wrote a set called “Hilchot Medina”

    Yeah, in which he paskened that people should not leave yeshiva to go to the IDF. As was the opinion of R’ Kook, R’ Tzvi Pesach Frank, and R’ Moshe Feinstein, to name a few.

    Attention Avi K (OK, and everyone else)

    Also see:

    Winning the struggle for religious rights in the IDF

    #1251496

    takahmamash
    Participant

    Yekke2:

    Kol hakavod to your sons.

    My daughters, but thank you just the same. 😉

    #1251497

    mw13
    Participant

    zdad:
    Please tell us what Posek allows for Genevas Zman for someone unrelated to the protest

    Just out of curiosity, if I were to name you such a Posek, would you accept his ruling as a valid opinion which people have the right to follow?

    I’m also curious if you can bring me a source that shows that there is a specific issur called “Genevas Zman”.

    #1251506

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    So lets make it simpler for you

    If someone was on their way to a Shiur or Chavrusa and missed the Chavrusa or Shiur because they were late

    Who gets the Averah for Bittul Torah

    #1251530

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    ZD – If someone came late to their chavrusa because there were pedestrians crossing on a crosswalk and they had to wait for them, you wouldn’t blame the pedestrians. If they were held up because there was a lot of unexpected traffic because of a Simcha, you wouldn’t blame the baalei hasimcha or the people attending the Simcha.

    If you were late to a chavrusa because the streets were closed off because the President of the US was visiting, you wouldn’t blame the President. If the streets were closed off or blocked because of a Yom HaAtzmaut parade, you wouldn’t blame the people having the parade.

    In Israel, protests/demonstrations are a normal, common, accepted practice, and they are held for all sorts of reasons by all types of people – left wing, right wing, secular, religious-zionists, and Chareidim.
    This being the case, I am not sure that they are any different than any of the above examples. Of course, one must ask a sheilah since, as you correctly point out, there may be several halachic issues involved. But it is very possible and even likely that there are Gedolim/Rabbanim who allow and encourage demonstrations in certain cases. Therefore, there is no reason to assume that these boys did not ask a sheilah, and in fact, it may be assur to assume that they didn’t.

    #1251531

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Takahmamash: “Yekke2: kol hakavod to your sons. My daughters, but thank you just the same.”

    Yekke, I’m waiting for you to respond to that.

    #1251558

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Yekke, I’m waiting for you to respond to that.

    I’ve written an answer to your post three times and all three times I’ve deleted it.

    Responding would defeat the purpose of thinking three times before I didn’t post.

    #1251537

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If you want a proper protest, go to the Beis Medrash and say Tehilim. You will be asking the proper authority on this matter (and the only one who matters) and not inconvience anyone

    #1251571

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    ZD: “If you want a proper protest, go to the Beis Medrash and say Tehilim.”

    Great idea – maybe you should follow it instead of protesting in the CR against the demonstrators.

    #1251570

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Yekke – you had written that in response to something else, not to the particular post that I quoted.

    In any case, kol hakavod for thinking so much before you don’t post. I do think that this post requires a response, but I’m not sure I’d be able to do it right and I think you would be.

    #1251590

    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    Yekke2:

    I’m a little late to this thread, and I somewhat regret that now.

    I appreciate your recalcitrance, and your commensurate sensitivity. The calls for you to respond may be putting you between a rock and a hard place, but I think I agree with the view that this forum is hardly a platform for any form of protest, or unnecessary offence, if you see what I mean. I trust your judgement, which has proven exemplary thus far. Good luck…

    #1251651

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    NE – I hear your point and you may be right. The problem was that something was being used as a proof that others are wrong and that something itself is a proof that it’s not the others who are wrong. If it weren’t for the sake of defending anyone, I would also agree that a response is not called for. The question is how one can refute the premise and defend one without offending the other or if that is not possible, would it be okay to defend one even if it involves offending the other? Also, it would probably help to have sources to quote which I don’t and I thought he might.

    I do have an idea for a possible response and I might do so when I have a chance to think it through better.

    #1251749

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Yekke – you had written that in response to something else, not to the particular post that I quoted.

    I deliberately requoted it in response to your post. My position hasn’t changed.

    Sorry, but I don’t think I can help with this one.

    #1251804

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Yekke – I hear. You are probably right, so I’m glad you stuck to your position. I thought about it and realized that you actually did a really good job already. Shkoyach!

    #1251926

    mw13
    Participant

    OK, I’ll say it.

    Suffice to say that yekke2 would have almost certainly not said “Kol hakavod” to women serving in the IDF, due to the famous psak of the Chazon Ish that having women serve under the command of men (or vice versa) would fall into the category of אביזרהו דגילוי עריות, which is יהרוג ואל יעבור.

    #1251957

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    LU

    “Great idea – maybe you should follow it instead of protesting in the CR against the demonstrators.”

    My guess is ZD believes in doing hishtadlus, he is following what he believes.
    On the other hand It is hypocritical when a group claims to believe that learning protects them so they dont need to serve (even in a non-military capacity). yet when faced with a “threat” (and it is hard to call having people register a threat) all of a sudden forget about learning, it is time to play in the street and inconvenience others

    #1252025

    Chortkov
    Participant

    “Kol Hakavod” was referring to the fact that their spirituality wasn’t negatively affected in the army, not to anything else. This applies equally to anyone with the misfortune of being in a situation of nisayon.

    But mw13 is spot on that I would not praise any women for any form of national service.

    #1252008

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    LuL: You’re not being for real here, are you? You don’t really mean to equate a by-product of an event (i.e. a presidential appearance, traffic) to a deliberate action MEANT PURPOSEFULLY to harm others. And DAVKA others – as terrorists do. Read my post before. I don’t know which land it’s the norm – other than in Sodom! A protest, demonstration (even on a daily basis!) I would hear (actually I do hear – I have a son living IN it, directly above those cute little Froggies being burnt daily!), but harming by deliberate intent is wrong and Assur. And there’s no Heter for it. And it’s pure Lashon Hara to say they asked a Sha’alo, you’re Motzi Shem Ra on the Rav who gave permission.

    #1252041

    mw13
    Participant

    ubiq:
    It is hypocritical when a group claims to believe that learning protects them so they dont need to serve (even in a non-military capacity). yet when faced with a “threat” (and it is hard to call having people register a threat) all of a sudden forget about learning, it is time to play in the street and inconvenience others

    The Brisker Rov once asked why it is that on Channukah we fought the Yevanim in a physical battle, while on Purim we fasted and prayed. Why the different approaches? He answered that on Purim we were faced with physical annihilation, so we knew the only solution to that was in Hashem’s hand – we don’t control the world, He does. But on Channukah we faced a spiritual danger, and הכל בידי שמים חוץ מיראת שמים, so we had to take matters into our own hands and fight a physical battle to save our spiritual well-being.

    (A quick caveat – just because I don’t believe the actions of Peleg Yerushalmi are hypocritical does not mean I support them. I follow the opinion of R’ Shteinman, R’ Chaim, and the vast majority of Rabbonim that these protests are only counter-productive, and that everyone should go get a deferment and go back to learning.)

    #1252250

    mw13
    Participant

    LF:
    I happen to agree with you that there is no equivalence between incidentally inconveniencing people and purposefully staging a protest to make a bigger splash by inconveniencing people.

    But there is also no equivalence between causing traffic and murdering people. For you to hurl around epithets like “sodom” and “terrorists” is ridiculous and reprehensible. We should not be calling our fellow Jews “terrorists” or “Nazis” just because we don’t like what they’re up to. C’mon, you’re better than that.

    MAILBAG: Stop the shouts of ‘Nazis!’ and ‘Murderers!’

    #1252260

    Avi K
    Participant

    MW, that is only guys who are really learning and a situation where they are not needed. However, if guys are just lolling about they should serve. If they have time toriot they are not learning at the proper level (Rav Tzvi Yehuda would not allow talmidim to lend their names to political discussions). Rav Nachman Kahana suggested a solution. Have exams at different stages. Those who pass get a deferment. Those who don’t don’t (and BTW, when they instituted exams in Lakewood many guys lost their stipends). Guys at the higher levels will give shiurim to soldiers. IMHO, they should show their lishma and concern for Klal Yisrael by dedicating their learning to the success of the IDF and saying the mishe berach for the soldiers and the state (I don’t see how anyone can object to asking Hashem to give our political leaders wisdom).

    Yekke, I am proud of those girls. http://www.hebrewbooks.org/rambam.aspx?sefer=14&hilchos=83&perek=7&halocha=4&hilite=

    #1252285

    mw13
    Participant

    when they instituted exams in Lakewood many guys lost their stipends

    Another blatantly false canard that you just keep on repeating. You know, it’s really quite irksome to try to argue with somebody who simply does not care what is true and what is false. Your lack of intellectual honesty and/or grip on reality is really getting to me.

    #1252291

    mw13
    Participant

    (I was in BMG until recently, and no exams were ever instituted. Period. Just didn’t happen. I’ve said this to Avi K in the past when he first started with this false claim, but he just on repeating it like it’s Torah MiSinai.)

    #1252322

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Yekke, I am proud of those girls.

    I’m afraid to say I didn’t expect anything better of you.

    #1252354

    takahmamash
    Participant

    Yekke, I am proud of those girls.

    So am I.

    #1252481

    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    Being in learning is not about whether you would be able to pass a test.

    I challenge anybody to argue this point.

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