Attention Avi K (OK, and everyone else)

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  • #617808
    mw13
    Participant

    I’m (probably) speaking on Shavous on the subject of Learning in Yeshiva vs Serving in the IDF: What is the Halacha? Wondering if anybody has any good mareh makomos for me (but save the spin, it’ll just get the thread shut down).

    Thanks in advance!

    #1155634
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #1155635
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    ??? ??? ???? ?????…

    If they don’t know which way to hold a gun, how would they do it? I think it’s most important to learn how to shoot, then go inside and argue a Reb Chaim…?? ??? ?????

    #1155636
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Bamidbar 32:6

    #1155637
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Amazing how ubiquitin caught R’ Moshe Feinstein, R’ Eliezer Valdenberg, and R’ Tzvi Pesach Frank zt”l missing a pasuk in the Torah.

    #1155638
    Avi K
    Participant

    Rambam, Hilchot Melachim 5:1 and 7:4. Of course, not everyone is a combat soldier. IMHO, those who are superior learner (according to objective exams administered by the IDF rabbinate) can form a “cheil haTalmud”, learn for the success of the IDF and give shiurim (something like the mashuach milchama). See “On Yeshiva Men Serving In The Army” by Rabbi Alfred S. Cohen, available on-line.

    #1155639
    american_yerushalmi
    Participant

    Rambam sof Shmitta ve’Yovel.

    #1155640
    Joseph
    Participant

    Rambam Iggeres Teiman.

    #1155641
    Avi K
    Participant

    He is referring to getting a job vs. learning full-time. BTW, here is what he says about someone who wants to take welfare l’chatchila in order to learn full-time:

    #1155642
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Of course, we don’t pasken according to that Rambam.

    Avi, your suggestion that the IDF Rabbinate should be the arbiters of who should learn is laughable.

    So far, I’m unimpressed by the responses. I quoted (linked) three of the foremost poskim of our times, and the only “counters” were irrelevant to the question.

    #1155643
    Joseph
    Participant

    The Halachah is that today you’re allowed to live off Tzedakah to learn. See the Ramah and Shach in Hilchos Talmud Torah.

    #1155644
    mw13
    Participant

    DY:

    Thanks for those sources.

    Avi K:

    I join DY in being unimpressed by your sources.

    See the Rambam at the end of his introduction to Sefer HaMitzvos that says wars are only carried out with a King, a Sanhedrin, and a Kohen Gagol, brought down li’halacha in Igros Moshe CM 2:78), and Rashi in Eirevin 17a, Sanhedrin 2a, and Sotah 44b that says wars carried out in self-defense are not considered Milchemes Mitzva.

    Also, see the Shu”t DY linked to.

    As for the Rambam in Hilchos Talmud Torah, as others have pointed out the Shulchan Aruch and Rema do not pasken like that Ramabam, they pasken like the Rov Rishonim. Also see Igros Moshe YD 4:36 that holds the Rambam would be matir getting money for Torah today.

    #1155645
    mw13
    Participant

    Besides for R’ Tzvi Pesach Frank, R’ Moshe Feinstein, and the Tzit Eliezer, another one of the Gedolim who was vehemently against drafting Yeshiva bochrim was none other than R’ Avraham Yitzchok HaCohen Kook.

    http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20825&st=&pgnum=84

    Some brief snippets:

    ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ??????????? ????? ?????, ????? ????? ?????? ?? ????????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???…

    ??? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??????

    ????? ?????? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ??????? ?? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????, ??????? ?????? ?????, ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???????

    #1155646
    Joseph
    Participant

    Rav Kook was also against women voting. But the people today who profess to follow him really just pick and choose what fancies them and discard the rest.

    #1155647
    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    We don’t usually pasken by the Rambam, and how is he relevant for a debate about the IDF? I’ve noticed sort of a trend in the CR that when someone is defending an argument that goes against the mainstream, and their back is against the wall, they quote the Rambam or pasken straight from the parshah. I agree with the others that it’s unimpressive. Not that I totally disagree with Avi. In fact, we probably see eye to eye about working with learning.

    #1155648
    mw13
    Participant

    Joe:

    save the spin, it’ll just get the thread shut down

    #1155649
    Avi K
    Participant

    DY & MW,

    1. Yes we do pasken that Rambam.

    2. Who is a talmid chacham? Some bachur who spends half his time at the coffee corner, reading newspapers and demonstrating? If the tzibbor is going to give them a deferment the Chief Rabbinate should be the body to see if they are really learning. Moreover, if they are serious about being part of the military effort they should dedicate their learning to it seriously.

    Joseph, the Rema only brings that as a “yesh omrim”. Stam v'”yesh omrim”, halacha k’stam – and what about Sepharadim? In any case, if the tzibbor is going to pay them it should be able able to make sure that it is not being cheated through audits (without warning so that there is no time to pad the bet midrash) and exams.

    #1155650
    Avi K
    Participant

    MW,

    The requirement for a Sanhedrin and Navi only refers to milchemet reshut not a milchemet mitzva (Ramban, Hilchot Melachim 5:2; Ran, Derash 11; Netziv, He’emek Devar, Deavrim 17:14; Rav Kook, Mishpat Cohen 144)

    Rav Herzog (Heichal Yitzchak OC 31 and 38), the Tzitz Eliezer (3:9:10, 3:10, 7:48:12) and Rav Ovadia (Yabia Omer 10 CM 6:23 on the Entebbe operation) say that Israel’s wars have been milchemot mitva.

    #1155651
    american_yerushalmi
    Participant

    Avi K: “if the tzibbor is going to pay them it should be able able to make sure that it is not being cheated through audits and exams.”

    But, there’s no need to audit all the secular youth (as much as 47% according to stats released by the IDF) who are MUCH more numerous than the few thousand 18-30 year old yeshiva bochurim. Yeah, the ones faking psychological problems, who pay certain therapists under the table to falsely certify them as suffering from some mental illness. Or those that simply do everything possible to avoid serving or to get themselves thrown out of the army. Much of this is with the agreement and collusion of their parents.

    And then how much does the tzibbur pay the fake students, the athletes, the “artists,” the entertainers, should I go on — many of whom shirk army service. Who are you trying to fool? The uninitiated who live in the U.S. might not know these things, but those of us who live here all know the real score. So chill out and put the rest of the house in order before going after the yeshiva bochurim.

    #1155652
    Avi K
    Participant

    AY, that subject has not been broached up to now. Yes, they should be checked. In fact, IDF spies follow girls who claim to be religious and woe to the girl who rides on Shabbat or eats in a non-kosher restaurant. As for the students, athletes, artists and entertainers, the students only receive a deferment if they go into the academic reserves. After they receive their degrees they serve in their professions, mainly in technical positions. Athletes, so far as I know, are not exempted. In fact, in one famous case an athlete left the country in order to avoid the draft. Ditto artists. With entertainers you have it backwards. They are noticed and put into entertainment units boosting morale. After their service they go pro.

    In any case, you are using the same fallacious argument that people who rip off government programs in the US use. Other ethnic groups do it so there is nothing wrong with Jews doing it. I once asked someone if Jews should also mug people. Of course, he did not have an answer.

    #1155653
    mw13
    Participant

    Avi K:

    The requirement for a Sanhedrin and Navi only refers to milchemet reshut not a milchemet mitzva (Ramban, Hilchot Melachim 5:2

    You are confusing two separate issues. The Rambam clearly writes in his introduction to the Sefer HaMitzvos that no korbanos, misas beis din, or wars are to be carried out without the Beis HaMikdosh:

    ????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ?????… ?? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??????

    A cursory glance at the Rambam that you referenced shows that he is only discussing when the King needs the permission of the Sanhedrin to declare war; but both must be established for any war at all to be declared.

    I will also point out again that Rashi says in Eirevin 17a, Sanhedrin 2a, and Sotah 44b that all wars after the wars of Yehoshua are not considered Milchemes Mitzva.

    Also see the Igros Moshe I previously cited (CM 2:78):

    ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???’ ????? ?????? ?????? ???????? ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??????? ?? ???? ????? ?????, ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?”?

    One can argue whether R’ Moshe holds like the Rambam or like Rashi, but either way it’s clear he does not hold the concept of Milchemes Mitzva is aplicable today.

    (BTW, just because somebody mentions that particapting in the wars of the State of Israel is a mitzva does not mean that the war itself has the status of Milchemes Mitzva.)

    On a seperate note, the Tzitz Eleizer in his sefer Hilchos Medinah (linked to by DY) says that Talmidei Chachomim, like Shevet Levi, should not be drafted into combat even in a Milchemes Mitzva, unless the war will be lost otherwise. However, in the case of a Milchemes Reshus he says the state must retreat and cancel the military campaign rather than draft Talmidei Chachomim. He brings a proof to this from two Gemaros, one in Sota 10a that says Asa lost his legs because he drafted Talmidei Chachomim, and the other in Nedarim 32 that says Avraham Avinu was punished for waging war with Talmidei Chachomim.

    Then he brings down that R’ Kook proved from those same Gemaros that a Talmid Chachom is pattur even from Milchemes Mitzva.

    Finally, I think it is rather ironic that you are trying to prove your point by quoting R’ Kook, the Tzitz Eliezer, and R’ Ovadya Yosef, who were all clearly and vehemently opposed to the very idea that you are attempting to advance, namely drafting yeshiva bochrim into the Israeli army.

    So tell me, are there any Poskim that we would normally consider to be a Bar Plugta of the likes of R’ Kook, R’ Tzvi Pesach Frank, R’ Moshe, and the Tzitz Eliezer, that actully pasken that yeshiva bochrim should be drafted?

    #1155654
    Avi K
    Participant

    MW,

    In Mishna Tora he clarifies that “war” refers to a milchemet reshut and “conquering cities” means outside EY. You still have not defined a talmid chacham. It is certainly not some butterfly (the Israeli slang expression) who is officially listed as a talmid but goofs off. In practice, Rav Tzvi Yehuda (Kook) gave a personal pesak to each talmid in his yeshiva. Moreover, you have not dealt with the suggestion for establishing military battei midrash whose students will be officially part of the IDF like other support troops learn for the success of the combat troops. Asfor Rav Moshe’s teshuva, with all due respect he is a daat yachid. It is also very puzzling as Rabbi Akiva and his colleagues supported Bar Kochba. Moreover, it is against Rambam, Ramban (in his Sefer HaMitzvot), the Ran and the Netziv as I previously posted.

    #1155655
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    1. Yes we do pasken that Rambam.

    I’m not sure if you’re being disingenuous or ignorant, but we certainly don’t..

    Here is the ??? ???? refuting the ???”?. As was mentioned, the ??”? and ?”? pasken against the ???”?, and in fact the ?”? quotes the conclusion of the ??? ???? verbatim. (I’ll be happy to provide a link for that as well if you need.)

    http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/rambam.aspx?mfid=81704&rid=189

    #1155656
    Avi K
    Participant

    DY,

    1. I was referring to Rambam’s statements regarding a milchemet mitzva.

    2. The Kesef Mishna only says that a rav who teaches others may receive payment. In any case, today he can publish books and receive royalties, receive a salary from the yeshiva, etc. Of course, if someone is receiving aid anyway because he cannot find a job, has a disability, etc. should go and learn to his ability.

    #1155657
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    1. I was referring to Rambam’s statements regarding a milchemet mitzva.

    You were responding to me and I was not talking about milchemes mitzvah.

    The Kesef Mishna only says that a rav who teaches others may receive payment.

    No he doesn’t.

    ????? ?? ???? ????? ??????? ???????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?????

    #1155658
    mw13
    Participant

    Avi K:

    The Rambam clearly writes in his introduction to the Sefer HaMitzvos that no korbanos, misas beis din, or wars are to be carried out without the Beis HaMikdosh. And that’s even if you’re not gores the line ?? ????? ???? ?? ????? ????. I’m not sure how you think this can be circumvented…

    Also, can you quote the loshon of the Ramban, Ran, and Netziv? I don’t currently have any access to them.

    Asfor Rav Moshe’s teshuva, with all due respect he is a daat yachid.

    Who exactly are this majority of Poskim that R’ Moshe is supposedly arguing with?

    (Again, just because somebody mentions that participating in the wars of the State of Israel is a mitzva does not mean that the war itself has the status of Milchemes Mitzva.)

    It is also very puzzling as Rabbi Akiva and his colleagues supported Bar Kochba.

    Supporting a war is not the same thing as holding that that particular war has the halachic status of a Milchemes Mitzva. According to you, R’ Akiva should have instructed his talmidim to go fight under Bar Kochva.

    But all this about whether or not there is a Milchemes Mitzva today is very much a side point. The gist of the issue, which you have not addressed, is:

    So tell me, are there any Poskim that we would normally consider to be a Bar Plugta of the likes of R’ Kook, R’ Tzvi Pesach Frank, R’ Moshe, and the Tzitz Eliezer, that actully pasken that yeshiva bochrim should be drafted?

    #1155659
    mw13
    Participant

    Avi K/DY:

    See Igros Moshe YD 4:36:4 that says that the Rambam would allow taking money for Torah today:

    http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=922&st=&pgnum=268

    Also, it should be noted that the Rambam was never against being supported by an individual, only the general public. The Rambam himself was supported for many years by his brother, who was a successful merchant, until his brother was lost at sea.

    #1155660
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Would you choose army or kollel?

    ???? ???? ?? ??? ???????? ??? ???? ????”? ??? ???? ????”? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??????

    Note that he says ??????.

    #1155661
    Avi K
    Participant

    MW,

    The Rambam clearly states in Mishna Torah that there is no need for a navi or Sanhedrin in the case of a milchemet mitzva ?? ?(http://www.hebrewbooks.org/rambam.aspx?sefer=14&hilchos=83&perek=5&halocha=2&hilite=).

    2. ???”? ??? ?????? ?????????”? ??? ????? ??? ?

    [????? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ??????? ????? ????? ????? “??? ???? ?? ????] ??? ?????? ????????”. ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ????, ??????? ??????, ??? ????: “???? ?? ????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ???” ???’, ??? ????? ???? ????. ?????? ??? ?????, ????? ????? ?????? ???????: “??? ?? ???? ??? ?’ ????? ??, ?? ???? ??? ???”. ????? ???: “?????? ?’ ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???”. ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???, ???? “????? ?? ?? ?’ ??????”, ??? “?? ?????”, ????? ???? ?????, ?? ????? ??????.

    ??????? “????? ????? ?????”, ???? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ??????. ??? ???? ?????: “?? ????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????” ???’, “??? ???: ?? ????? ?????? ??? ???????? ????, ??? ?? ????. ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ????: ‘?????? ???? ?????? ???????’, ???? ??: ‘?? ????? ???” ???’. ?????: “??? ????: ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????, ???? ????? ?????? ??? ????: ??? ??? ??? ?????, ?????? ????: ??????? ??? ?????, ???? ????? ????? ???? ????; ???? ?? ??? ??”. ??? ????????? ?????? ??? ??????.

    3. HeEmek Devar Devarim 17,14: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14021&st=&pgnum=157

    4. Saying that it is a mitzva to go to war is the same as saying that it is a milchmmet mitzva. No amount of sophistry will change that.

    5. The point is that there was no navi in Rabbi Akiva’s time. In fact, I heard that the 12,000 pairs of talmidim who died were two groups. One went into the army and one did not. neither respected the other’s position.

    6. The poskim to whom you refer were talking about those who are really learning not merely listed. I am sure that if there would be military bet midrash where they would learn for the success of the IDF like other support units those poskim would have no problem. There are also the hesder and mechina models, which could be extended to the Charedi sector. This, in fact, would save many boys who are not built for full-time learning and wind up preying on their own communities for lack of an outlet. I personally was witness to the beginnings (I ran for my life) of a rumble between the “shabab Chareidi” and the tzeniut patrol when I lived in Bnei Beraq.

    7. No one has a problem with a private person supporting a bachur or anyone else he wishes to support. However, if the tzibbor is going to support someone and also release him from obligations the tzibbor has the right to make sure that they are not being cheated. In fact, Chazon Ish, Rav Shachand Rav Wolbe all condemned those who are using yeshivot to getout of the IDF but are not learning. I heard that the CI even said that they should be reported to the authorities. Rav Tzvi Yehuda Kook, as I previously posted, gave each bachur a personal pesak. Some were told to enlist and some were told not to.

    DY, obviously Rav Moshe was talking about someone who has a future as a talmid chacham (see Taanit 21a).

    #1155662
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Almost anyone could become a talmid chochom if he applies himself.

    #1155663
    Avi K
    Participant

    DY, almost doesn’t count except in Horseshoes and hand grenades. The fact is that someone who is not cut out to be a talmid chacham will not apply himself. Hashem does not giev out talents and desires for no reason.

    #1155664
    american_yerushalmi
    Participant

    Avi K, what is this obsession with curtailing or shutting down the chareidi yeshiva system? A thousand study and a hundred and fifty become Talmidei Chachamim. The others? They get training in order to be able to appreciate the 150 Talmidei Chachamim. BTW, a Talmid Chacham

    who is not a gadol is also a Talmid Chacham. Not everyone becomes a gadol hador! The ones who really can’t manage even that end up leaving, doing Nachal Chareidi, or some other solution. Is every Technion student a future Einstein? Does the Technion know in advance who will make a Nobel Prize-winning discovery in 20 years? No, of course not. Those who want to study physics at the Technion’s level are allowed to do so. Do you think that Hashem only helps potential physics geniuses, but not yeshiva students? To those who really want it, Hashem grants siyata de’shmaya. Those who don’t or can’t — generally end up leaving the yeshiva.

    What are you trying to accomplish anyway? A few thousand more jobniks in the IDF? The army doesn’t have enough jobs as it is and many conscripts are underutilized and seriously wasting time and taxpayer money by being in the army. But, as long at they’ll put on the green uniform even for just a few months till the army realizes that these guys anyway have nothing to do — so Avi K will be satisfied. OK, probably some quality combat soldiers could come from the ranks of the chareidi yeshiva world. But, it will be impossible to turn the majority of them into killers. So, they’ll end up being conscripted to do busy work — at the taxpayers expense.

    Avi K, you and I both know the truth: NO ONE can be “forced” to be a soldier against their will. A conscript might have to endure punishment, possibly physical, time in a military stockade. But, ultimately, the army cannot and will not retain such guys that simply will not cooperate. Undermining morale and discipline in the unit is counterproductive. The army knows this and has never called for “forced conscription” because the army knows that it’s a waste of time — and taxpayers’ money.

    As you surely know, the only way to change the chareidi mind-set is to persuade the gedolim to change their minds. So, as I’ve posted so many times in the past, arrange a meeting with some of the gedolim and try to convince them your approach is the correct one. Admittedly, it’s a long shot, but you could try. That is the only way to change the chareidi tzibbur’s collective mind. Continually citing the opinions of rabbis that the chareidim don’t follow or respect is not going to achieve anything. Just like I don’t expect (although I will you would) you to accept the da’as Torah of the gedolim that I respect, you’ve got to realize that I am not going to accept the rulings of the other rabbis, those whose opinions you consider binding and authoritative. One thing is for sure: this continuous haranguing in the CR is totally fruitless. Persuade the gedolim that your opinions are right, and you will achieve your goal. Otherwise, “chaval al hazman,” you will just be talking till you’re blue in the face. (Not great for one’s health!)

    #1155665
    mw13
    Participant

    OK, I think this conversation has officially lost its forward momentum. I just don’t have the patience to keep responding to the reposting of points that have been conclusively disproven, or svaaros that all of the Poskim clearly disregard.

    DY & I have brought R’ Kook, R’ Tzvi Pesach Frank, R’ Moshe Feinstein, and the Tzitz Eliezer explicitly paskening that Yeshiva Bochrim should not join the IDF. The Chazon Ish and the Steipler Gaon can be added to that list as well. You have brought no Poskim of similar stature that argue.

    The conclusion here should be obvious.

    #1155666
    Avi K
    Participant

    AY,

    1. There is no such obsession. In fact, this will clear outthe dead wood and turn them into live wood in another framework.

    2. If you want to use the Technion example then have the Rabbanut give exams just as the Technion has entrance exams.

    3. As for your fallacious example about appreciating talmidei chachamim, if they have not learned this by age 18 then the Chareidi yeshiva system is a complete failure.

    4. FYI, there is forced conscription. Moreover, some people want to be forced so that they have an excuse. This, in fact, is what American olim do to avoid losing their US citizenship.

    5. What other harangues do you propose?

    #1155667
    mw13
    Participant

    by age 18

    Whatever makes you think that anybody should be going to the army at age 18?

    ????? ?, ?: ??? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??????

    ??”?: ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????

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