June 18, 2013 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #961952
PBA, yet the same doesn’t apply when it’s the other way around. Why is that? Why do charedim (and not just the rabbanim, but even laypeople) get a free pass on vitriol?
We shouldn’t. When it meets the standard I articulated.June 18, 2013 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #961953
Felt, wheras most American chareidim respect R’ Willig and R’ Schachter as talmidei chachomim, even while not considering them their leaders, the same cannot be said for Tendler.June 18, 2013 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #961954
What about calling Rabbis by Mr.? Is that something that should not be allowed? Certainly that is not calling someone evil, but it shows a lack of respect, merely because you disagree with that person.June 18, 2013 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #961955
PBA: 1) Okay, then, onward to the relevant tangent.
Besides, back to my original deleted question way back when, what if a rav whom I truly respect as a gadol were to tell me that e was appalled by this? What if this person was a woman (or is that over the line? What if one person whom YOU called a gadol said this about another person whom YOU also called a gadol?
And I reiterate what truthsharer said: why is it that the RCA has to be so respectful when criticizing R’ Ovadia but he doesn’t need to be when he criticizes R’ Stav?
2) If the letter was private then why did you post it?June 18, 2013 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #961956
So- are you brave enough to let this through: why must I respect as a gadol someone who calls another Jew evil? Is it solely because he is called a gadol?
Rav Ovadyah says evil like the Satmer Rov said Apikores. The level of hatred has become so bad in Israeli politics (and not just Charaidi/non charaidi, but even more so Charaidi/Charaidi) that I am happy that I don’t live there.
Isn’t that sad?June 18, 2013 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #961957
Mod: Until I know the answer to my questions, I won’t understand why it’s such a problem to criticize him for something for which we would criticize anyone else. It is 100% relevant.
If you think that last question was written in good faith or whatever, then you should realize that so was everything else I wrote.
I think the issue here is not the criticism, but the outrageous manner of the criticism. It’s the difference between your parents saying you were wrong to stay out late versus saying they wish you hadn’t been born.June 18, 2013 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #961958
Syag: Don’t I know it…June 18, 2013 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #961959
The issue is not the criticism itself but the language used in the criticism.June 18, 2013 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #961960
What about the language used that caused the criticism?
Not relevant, unless you think that it justifies the reaction. It ought to be clear and obvious that it does not.June 18, 2013 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #961961
Hakham Ovadia doesn’t need my defense and words of praise. But, his statements should not be upsetting. He speaks his mind, and is one of the most sensible, articulate poskim ever known to the world.June 18, 2013 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #961962
rebdoniel: “most sensible”? Hard to back up this assertion, in view of the recent eventsJune 18, 2013 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #961963
mod: This is taken from my above post to PBA:
“And I reiterate what truthsharer said: why is it that the RCA has to be so respectful when criticizing R’ Ovadia but he doesn’t need to be when he criticizes R’ Stav?”
Actually, you responded to truthsharer, so honestly, why is it so clear and obvious to you?
The only rationale I could see would be that thing your mom always says about “you need to show you’re better than the other person.” But apparently that’s a lost cause- if they’re automatically inferior, why keep up the pretense? Whom are they trying to impress?
I’m just not understanding the whole issue of a hierarchy.June 18, 2013 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #961964
If you look at this psakim on kashrut, his views on minhagim, etc. it becomes obvious that he’s very much true to the Gemara, Rambam, and Maran haMehaber. His approach is a classic Sephardic one, and his psakim are actually quite sensible. I separate Hakham Ovadia the posek from Hakham Ovadia the politician.June 18, 2013 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #961965
As I have noted before and what is incontrovertible, is that vitriol is spewed in a much greater measure and frequency by the MO. Certainly if the blogs and “Jewish media” is any indicator.
Even on YWN, which ostensibly is not MO, the negativity and the hideously fabricated accounts by the non chareidi far, far outweighs any negativity by the chareidim.June 18, 2013 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #961966
DaasYochid, that’s RABBI Tendler to you! R’ Moshe obviously disagreed with you, as he wrote very highly of his son-in-law. Either way, it’s not for you to decide who’s a legitimate Rav and who’s not. I don’t think very highly of Satmar (in case some people here haven’t noticed), does that give me the right to start insulting the warring Rebbes or R’ Yoel?June 18, 2013 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #961967
Yes, there is a hierarchy. The world isn’t black and white, as you know. 🙂
Rav Ovadia Yosef is a Gadol by all standards. We need to follow our leaders.
How do we decide who our leaders are? I don’t really know. That’s a question for a different thread. But I do know that it is not by reading the politics section of the newspaper. 🙂June 18, 2013 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #961968
I separate Hakham Ovadia the posek from Hakham Ovadia the politician
Oh. Like Jekkyl and Hide.
His approach is a classic Sephardic one, and his psakim are actually quite sensible.
Thank you, rebdoniel, for sharing your scholarly assessment of Rav Ovadia.
If rebdoniel could go inside the Gadol’s head and only see the amount of Torah within, he would go instantly insane, and every fiber of his pride would evaporate.
This is a sad day for the CR.
I had not known there was so much Eiruv Rav.
A sad day indeed.June 18, 2013 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #961969
What do Rav Kaniewski shlita & Rav Shteinman shlita hold about Rav Stav shlita? Considering that Rav Stave shlita would be the Ashkenazic Chief Rabbi, what do these 2 Ashkenazic Gedolim recommend?June 18, 2013 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #961970
The Chief Rabbis is for the Chilonim and the government not for the Charedim
No matter who the Chief Rabbi is the CHaredim will look to their own Rabbis. Ger to the Gerrer Rebbe, Belz to the Belzer Rebbe, Litvaks to Rav Shteinmen, the Sefardim to Rav Yosef etc.June 19, 2013 12:13 am at 12:13 am #961971
zahavasdad:- Notwithstanding your remarks, the chief Rabbi sets the religious tone for the country at large, which does have ripple effects on even isolationists, so who ends up being the 2 Chief Rabbis is critical to all & everyone.
It will be affecting Shemitta policy in just 16 months from now, as well as marriage/Geirus issues for a long time to come.June 19, 2013 12:34 am at 12:34 am #961972
To add to what Torah613 said:
You should not be comparing what the Rishon L’tzion (Rav Ovadia) said to what these RCA rabbis said. Because my criticism of the RCA rabbis holds just as true even if the Rishon L’tzion was absolutely wrong.
Because when a gadol makes a mistake, you can criticize perhaps if you think you are sure enough and you are worthy to criticize. But you certainly cannot say about him the awful things that are quoted in the opening post and which I don’t wish to repeat! Even if it were true that what he did is just as bad.
As for your question of why I wrote about this if it was supposed to be private–the letter was leaked and it was on the YWN homepage last night. I only found out this afternoon that it was supposed to be private.June 19, 2013 1:02 am at 1:02 am #961973
If the Haredim don’t hold by the Rabbanut, why do they insist on controlling its policies and putting their preferred pet candidates in office?June 19, 2013 2:20 am at 2:20 am #961974
DaasYochid, that’s RABBI Tendler to you!
No, it isn’t, and not because of his affiliation with MO.June 19, 2013 2:24 am at 2:24 am #961975
If the Haredim don’t hold by the Rabbanut, why do they insist on controlling its policies and putting their preferred pet candidates in office?
Because, in fact, the status if the marriages, divorces, and conversions of thousands of Jews lay in their hands.June 19, 2013 2:59 am at 2:59 am #961976
Far be it from me to question the Gadlus of Rav Ovadia, a true Gadol b’Torah. What I do – with utmost respect – question is the use of invective to describe those with whom he disagrees. As Chazal say, “Chachamim – Hizaharu B’divreichem”.
I personally am not in favor of Rav Stav, Shlita, becoming the Rav HaRashi – I’d much prefer someone like Rav Shapira, the son of a previous Rav HaRashi and currently a Rosh Yeshiva at Merkaz HaRav. That being said, I can see nothing to be gained by calling Rav Stav the names that have been used. If you disagree with his nomination, facts, not name-calling, are the best weapons to fight the nomination.
an Israeli YidJune 19, 2013 3:29 am at 3:29 am #961978
Truthsharer, where does it say one can not call another Jew (who is a roshah) evil? (I am not saying Rav Stav is.)
ROB, learn more and you’ll see that many things you regard as mili de’olma are actually in the realm of Halocha and Hashkofas Chazal. (And don’t provoke me again into having to bombard you with sourses.)June 19, 2013 4:26 am at 4:26 am #961979
mdd: as you addressed me, I will ask you again- find me a source that says that we have the obligastion to follow a Pssek on “milei d’alma” .Just by insulting me does not make you right. Please provide those sources you are so knowledgeable of. I repeat what I said many times : this assertion that Poskim are infallible and that we must put aside our own brains and follow them blindly is a modern invention. Please provide sources.June 19, 2013 4:34 am at 4:34 am #961980
Please define what you mean by “mili d’alma”.June 19, 2013 4:38 am at 4:38 am #961982
popa- how do u know it was intended to be a private letterJune 19, 2013 4:41 am at 4:41 am #961983
I spoke to someone involved. I speak to people.June 19, 2013 6:14 am at 6:14 am #961985
In my humble opinion, the portion of that letter regarding “oy lo…, etc.” seems to refer to the hooliganism, not to Rav Ovadia Yosef and his decisions. So, if true, what’s wrong with the RCA’s letter?
I don’t want to change the thread’s direction regarding ROB’s remarks. But the Torah is obviously not a mere law book; it is a way of life. I’ll stop there.June 19, 2013 10:38 am at 10:38 am #961986
HaKatan: Thank you for backing me up on that interpretation!
Why can’t others be melamed zchus and assume that’s what it meant? Are you so eager to bash a mostly Modern Orthodox organization? Mods, why do you allow it?June 19, 2013 11:37 am at 11:37 am #961987
I agree with Popa’s interpretation of the letter.
I also think that promulgating such a letter is probably not the most tactful way to achieve peace.
But I do not think the letter writers were out of their bounds. There is no such thing as someone to choshuv to criticize. The nevi’im knew that and Chazal knew that. ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ???. We are not idol worshippers. If they know R’ Stav to be what they say he is, their words are right on target.June 19, 2013 11:43 am at 11:43 am #961988
Because, in fact, the status if the marriages, divorces, and conversions of thousands of Jews lay in their hands.
The problem is you can be a makel ,Machmir or chumra machmir. When dealing with Chilonim (and I mean non-religious people as opposed to anti-religious) you have to treat them differently. many Chilonim might very well up to a religious wedding, but it doesnt mean they want to go overboard. Charedi control of the wedding beraeu has caused approx 20% of Israelis to marry in Cyprus. Exactly what was accomplished by being machmir?
Being Machmir doesnt always get your desired resultsJune 19, 2013 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #961989
popa bar abba (and HaKatan): ‘milei d’alma’ means matters of everyday concern- not ruled by halacha. Examples (in modern terms): Do I support republicans or democrats? Do I join a demonstration against the medinah? (in historic terms): do I leave Europe for fear of the Nazis ,even though jewish life is not as developed in (say) the US?June 19, 2013 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #961990
ROB, let’s talk about the subject of the letter, which you think is “mili d’alma”.
Chacham Ovadiah denigrated R’ Stav. To me, his accepting the information he heard, and publicizing it (and whether the toeles is enough to justify it), fall under the category of hilchos loshon hora. Do you disagree?June 19, 2013 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #961991
But what I don’t get is this- let’s say there is a hierarchy (which I’m not saying there isn’t). The issue that people keep brushing aside, which is how you GET on the upper rungs of the hierarchy, is really not irrelevant at all- it’s crucial to this discussion. Why is R’ Ovadia a gadol EVEN THOUGH he called a fellow Jew evil? What checkboxes must you be able to fill in on the Gadlus Form in order to qualify? Is bekiyus in Torah enough that you don’t need menschlichkeit as well? What about the other way around?
Like I said above, what if this attack had been against a different gadol whom you also respected? What would your opinion have been then? With whom would you have sided?
My grandfather was a talmid of R’ Moshe Feinstein, and my father met him many times, including when he was little and didn’t yet speak Yiddish. He says that the one thing that sticks in his mind from then, when he was little and saw only an unfamiliar man, was his kindness and menschlichkeit, and even once they were able to communicate and my father really understood his gadlus in Torah, the thing that really struck him about R’ Moshe was his smile, his goodness.
Honestly, nothing in here is meant to be snarky or rude or anything- it’s actually filled with pain. I genuinely don’t understand how someone who is considered a gadol can say such things any more than anyone else- call me defective (though in my heart, I’m really not sure I am) but I just can’t take it on trust.June 19, 2013 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #961993
‘milei d’alma’ means matters of everyday concern- not ruled by halacha. Examples (in modern terms): Do I support republicans or democrats? Do I join a demonstration against the medinah? (in historic terms): do I leave Europe for fear of the Nazis ,even though jewish life is not as developed in (say) the US?
Can you describe them a bit more in abstract please? Like are you referring to things that are part of how Hashem wants us to act and conveyed that to us through the Torah? What are these things?
My basic rule is that we have to follow the Torah, and the rabbonim know the Torah better than we do and are more equipped to determine what the Torah wants. So anything that is in the province of the Torah, is in the province of the rabbonim.
I don’t know if we have the same understanding of your examples, but here are my answers for them:
R’s or D’s: Depends on if the reason is something that has to do with Judaism. Like if D’s want to outlaw bris milah or something (in 20 years).
Protest Israel: Depends if the reason is something that has to do with Judaism. So if it is because we think they are making a chillul Hashem, that seems absolutely in the Torah’s province.
Leave Europe: Depends on if the reasons are something that has to do with Judaism. So if it is just political predicting, then no. But if it is related to the spiritual risks of America, then that is absolutely in the Torah’s province.
What is your distinguishing line? Do you distinguish between things that are “halacha” and other things the Torah demands of us? That seems like a strange distinction, and I doubt such a line can be consistently drawn.June 19, 2013 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #961994
writersoul and PBA, you’re changing the topic of discussion here.
Popa, why do you shudder about the entire RCA? Why not just for the few people who signed the letter? Also, if you’re melamed zchus as you wrote earlier (in response to DaMoshe’s post), then why do you shudder?
I still think the mods should delete this entire thread. It is just the latest example of the double-standard here on YWN. I shudder for YWN! You’re in trouble after 120!June 19, 2013 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #961995
Popa, why do you shudder about the entire RCA? Why not just for the few people who signed the letter?
Ok fine, just these people.
Also, if you’re melamed zchus as you wrote earlier (in response to DaMoshe’s post), then why do you shudder?
I think it is possible. In which case they should come forward and publicly apologize and retract. I’m waiting.
I still think the mods should delete this entire thread. It is just the latest example of the double-standard here on YWN. I shudder for YWN! You’re in trouble after 120!
I don’t know what you have been posting on the other side, but I will note that you aren’t making sense. If you think this is objectively wrong to talk about, then you should say that. But if you think it is a double standard, then that implies you would be ok as long as they let you bash chareidim in similar way–which means you don’t think it is wrong.June 19, 2013 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #961996
But I do not think the letter writers were out of their bounds. There is no such thing as someone to choshuv to criticize. The nevi’im knew that and Chazal knew that. ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ???. We are not idol worshippers. If they know R’ Stav to be what they say he is, their words are right on target.
I’m not saying they shouldn’t have criticized (although, I am skeptical of that; perhaps they should have asked someone with a bit more stature to write the letter). I’m saying the content was outrageously far and away out of bounds.
And on that point, there really isn’t much worse you can say than “it would be better if you hadn’t learned any Torah”.
writer soul: I am brushing that aside, because it simply isn’t at issue in this situation, and I don’t care to discuss it. As I noted earlier. Start a different thread and ask who is a gadol (I’m sure you will not be satisfied by the answers, but neither will you be satisfied if you ask “what is obscenity”)June 19, 2013 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #961997
Feif Un: Sorry if it seems like I’m changing the topic here- I just really don’t get it.
PBA: I’m not sure why this isn’t an issue- IMHO, it’s actually very much a root of the issue. But I’m obviously not getting anywhere, and I don’t think I’m going to find answers here anyway (did I think I would to start with? Probably not… I don’t know why I started on this) but I think I’m just going to stop. Sorry for the annoyance.
I think I’ll skip the spin-off, thanks.June 19, 2013 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #961998
to Daas Yochid: I did not say anything about the letter- on the contrary, the RCA is fully competent to point out what they think is wrong. My point was that you did NOT have necessarily have to listen to Rav Ovadia Josef in this matter. Whether to support Rav Stav or not is not a halachic matter. If you follow Rav Ovadia Josef. then you listen to him but others (RCA, Rav Druckman and others) can certainly argue with that view.I tend to agree with you that the language was very intemperate.
To Popa bar abba; Halacha is encapsulated in the Shulchan Aruch. How to conduct your life as a jew is hazier (must you wear a black hat? Must I follow my view as to drafting all jews ?) I do not agree with you that the Rabbonim konw all the time what would be the Torah way. Do you follow the way of RSR Hirsch? Or, do you follow the way of the Hungarian rabbonim (firmly against limudei chol)?Do you follow the way of Rav Kook or do you follow the way of the Neturei Karta? The mishneh says “ashe lecho rav”- you can choose who your mentor is. Allow every Jew to have that choice and do not denigrate others who do not view the world as you do.June 19, 2013 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #961999
IMHO, it’s actually very much a root of the issue.
The way you view it.
I don’t think anyone would disagree that someone like Doeg would have been better off not learning. The question as you pose it is where does someone who “does these things” fall?
As I said earlier, I think both sides are posturing in the time-tested Israeli manner, and what they say reflects on absolutely nothing. IMHO that is wrong, but it is what it is.June 19, 2013 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #962000
Halacha is encapsulated in the Shulchan Aruch. How to conduct your life as a jew is hazier (must you wear a black hat? Must I follow my view as to drafting all jews ?) I do not agree with you that the Rabbonim konw all the time what would be the Torah way. Do you follow the way of RSR Hirsch? Or, do you follow the way of the Hungarian rabbonim (firmly against limudei chol)?Do you follow the way of Rav Kook or do you follow the way of the Neturei Karta? The mishneh says “ashe lecho rav”- you can choose who your mentor is. Allow every Jew to have that choice and do not denigrate others who do not view the world as you do.
Of course; I agree with that; everyone agrees with that. I thought you were saying it is something which is beyond the purview of rabbonim at all, like if I should eat stawberry or vanilla yogurt.
In fact, the only thing I disagree with you is that what you say applies also to halacha.June 19, 2013 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #962001
When dealing with Chilonim (and I mean non-religious people as opposed to anti-religious) you have to treat them differently.
We should allow them to produce mamzerim (whose grandchildren might marry mine and yours)?
Anyhow, my point was that all Jews have a vested interest in how the Rabbanut us run. If you disagree with how it’s run, that’s a separate discussion.June 19, 2013 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #962002
Whether to support Rav Stav or not is not a halachic matter.
Of course it is.June 19, 2013 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #962003
We should allow them to produce mamzerim (whose grandchildren might marry mine and yours)?
And the easiest way to avoid that is to make sure that they never get halachicly married.June 19, 2013 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #962004
🐵 ⌨ GamanitParticipant
gavra- it’s a lot easier to have a halachik marriage by mistake, than it is to have a halachik divorce.June 19, 2013 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #962005
We should allow them to produce mamzerim (whose grandchildren might marry mine and yours)?
Rav Moshe was generally very Makil on these issues when dealing with non-religious people. In some cases he probably made a bit of a stretch to prevent mamzeros. (Ie he claimed the Aidim werent kosher)
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