According to the Torah, was Chauvin Allowed to Kill Floyd?

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  • #1967157
    lakewhut
    Participant

    George Floyd pointed a gun at a pregnant woman, which made him a Rodef. You can kill a Rodef.

    #1967210
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    You can kill a rodef 13 years after the event?

    (and she wasn’t pregnant , doesn’t really change much but stick to facts)

    #1967215
    kollelman
    Participant

    You do realize Floyd committed suicide by taking 3x the fatal overdose level of drugs so the cops didn’t catch him with the drugs.

    #1967216
    lakewhut
    Participant

    Why not? He should have gotten justice then.

    #1967217
    lakewhut
    Participant

    Yes she was pregnant. I’m not allowed to post links. And if the articles about that aren’t true he still pointed a gun at a woman’s abdomen which makes him a rodef meaning he should have been put to death. He got what he deserved.

    #1967222
    Meno
    Participant

    Why not? He should have gotten justice then.

    Do you have a source for this or are you just making up halacha?

    #1967228
    lakewhut
    Participant

    Do I have a source that he pointed a gun at a woman? Yes there’s a police report. That makes him a rodef.

    #1967229
    jackk
    Participant

    Lakewhut,

    Can I send you a link to a shiur on rodef so that you can understand the basics ?
    What you are writing is against explicit pesukim in the Torah of “haba Bmachteres”

    #1967231
    Meno
    Participant

    The Rambam says that if you are able to prevent a rodef from killing by some means other than killing him, then you are not allowed to kill the rodef. It is clear from this that the mitzvah to kill a rodef is only in order to save someone’s life. It has nothing to do with justice.

    #1967236
    ymribiat
    Participant

    “Officers of the court” are permitted to you use force, up to and including lethal force. Full stop.

    #1967237
    lakewhut
    Participant

    jackk you’re a nogeiah bdavar liberal

    #1967242
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Lakewhut, your logic is gavre dekatila kotla, but a rodaf is a protection to save a life, so he is not considered a katila.

    #1967249
    The little I know
    Participant

    This whole thread is irrelevant. Who requires a goy to follow Torah law? Who says that the din of rodef applies to a goy? And what precisely is the issur to kill a goy? I learned that killing a goy is not murder. It’s bal tashchis. So why are we investigating rodef?

    It’s a common problem in the CR that we seek to apply halacha to goyim. Outside of Sheva Mitzvos, they have no allegiance whatsoever to Torah Law. If these discussions were academically interesting, that might justify them. But they are simply foolish. I would have hoped the OP would have hypothesized that the players were Jews (chas veshalom) and inquired about the halacha then.

    Goyim have no issur of mesira or arkaos, and they do not need their courts to apply the same restrictions to witnesses as halacha requires of beis din. But we hear such arguments here.

    #1967250
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    lakwhut, Torah does not apply here, its american lw

    #1967257
    ujm
    Participant

    Why are you assuming that Halacha is the same regarding a goy as it is regarding a Yid?

    #1967258
    Health
    Participant

    Meno -“It is clear from this that the mitzvah to kill a rodef is only in order to save someone’s life. It has nothing to do with justice.”

    He definitely was a Rodef.
    The cops were trying to arrest him.
    He resisted them.
    He could have killed a cop – that makes him a Rodef!
    If he wouldn’t have resisted, then he wouldn’t be dead!

    #1967289
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    lakewhut

    do you have a source for your contention that a rodef can be killed for the attempt 13 years alaet (or even 13 seconds after he is done “pursuing”) ?

    “Yes she was pregnant”

    she wasn’t . Yes there are articles that say that, but no contemporaneous ones do including the detailed police account, but regardless as I and you said pointing a gun at a woman is bad whther or not she was pregnant.

    However that has exactly zero bearing on Chauvin’s murder of him 13 years later.

    unless you can provide a source for this rule of “once a rodef always a rodef”

    #1967293
    huju
    Participant

    According to Minnesota and US law, which (i) over all, has been good for the Jews, and (ii) has actual jurisdiction over Chauvin, Chauvin was not allowed to kill Floyd. Chauvin goes to jail.

    The Torah is fairly clear that Jews must respect and live by civil law, with few exceptions. As usual, lakewhut is off the mark with his question.

    #1967324
    bk613
    Participant

    “He resisted them.
    He could have killed a cop – that makes him a Rodef!”
    Some times I wonder how your mind works.

    #1967362
    mdd1
    Participant

    The little I know, mudrering a Goy is murder! If someone knows little, he sholud not be posting.

    #1967364
    lakewhut
    Participant

    Not when the secular law is pro abominations like your democrats

    #1967365
    ujm
    Participant

    TLIK: One of the sheva Mitzvos is retzicha. As such, regulations of what constitutes retzicha and what does not and, rather, is self-defense, is part and parcel of the halachos goyim are subject to.

    huju: Jews must respect and live by civil law only to the extent that it does not conflict with Halacha. When it does, it is very clear that Halacha takes precedence.

    #1967386
    Avi K
    Participant

    1. It is ridiculous to call someone a rodef after thirteen years.
    2. Chauvin did not claim that his life was in danger.
    3. There are those who want to claim that anyone may kill a ben Noach who violated one of the sheva mitzvot, as Floyd did many times. However, this goes against many Rishonim (see דרך המלך: מענה הלכתי ורעיוני לספר תורת המלך and איסור הריגת גוי ורציחת מחבל כפות, both online) who make it clear that only a duly constituted court may do this).

    #1967402
    catch yourself
    Participant

    @TLIK

    1. Killing any person is murder.

    2. The Torah prescribes a code of conduct for non-Jews. Whether the non-Jews choose to follow the Halacha or not is irrelevant. The question in the OP was what the Halacha says about this case, which is an interesting question.

    @lakewhut
    Even if you witness a murder you may not kill the perpetrator, even though moments before he was a rodef.
    As others pointed out, even in the case of a rodef, if יכול להצילו באחד מאיבריו and you killed him, you’re the murderer.

    #1967408
    The little I know
    Participant

    mdd1:

    Wrong. A goy does not have a neshomoh. Murder of a goy is not retzicha. It is not permitted for other reasons. Thus, in this irrelevant discussion, the one doing the killing may not be a rodef.

    ujm:

    See prior response. I am not justifying or permitting killing a goy. The halachos relevant to rodef might not apply.

    CY:

    See above responses.

    #1967440
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    The more relevant rodef in this case is Chauvin

    Had a bystander killed Chauvin DURING his act of murder, while Chauvin was murdering his restrained, harmless (unconscious!) victim.
    Chauvin’s killer would be fully justified, and no less a hero than Nicholas Reardon who saved another victim.

    Note: Although at the time Chauvin was a rodef, he is no longer one, killing him today would not be justified, don’t make the same mistake the OP made .

    #1967438
    Avi K
    Participant

    Little, a goy does have a neshama. It is just different than a Jew’s neshama. For that matter, a Jew who lives in Eretz Yisrael has a different neshama than one who lives in galut.

    #1967428
    akuperma
    Participant

    Once Floyd was no longer resisting there was no reason to keep beating him up. While his misbehavior (possibly drug induced) would allow the police to subdue him, it would be for the judge to decide what to do with him (note that American law no longer allows beating up people as punishment). While there were elements of coercion used on the jury (letting them know that a wrong verdict would lead to massive violence, which implied their lives were at risk if they didn’t give a politically correct verdict), based on the press accounts it is reasonable that a jury could find that if the officer stopped using force at the point that Floyd was subdued and handcuffed, Floyd would not have died that night.

    If a person was authorized by Beis Din to subdue an insane person or a criminal, and after the person had been subdued, the person sent by Beis Din decided to beat him up (note that the Beis Din had not decided to order the person flogged, which they wouldn’t do if his misbehavior was due to drug overdose), and as a result of the illegal physical punishment (beyond what was necessary to subdue the offender) the person being beaten died, the person sent by the Beis Din would be in very big trouble. Note that when a Beis Din ordered someone flogged, they had to confirm that they weren’t killing him.

    #1967426
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The whole thing does not apply. The Rambam paskens Hilchas Melochim (9,4):

    רמב”ם הלכות מלכים פרק ט הלכה ד
    בן נח שהרג נפש אפילו עובר במעי אמו נהרג עליו, וכן אם הרג טריפה או שכפתו ונתנו לפני הארי או שהניחו ברעב עד שמת, הואיל והמית מכל מקום נהרג, וכן אם הרג רודף שיכול להצילו באחד מאיבריו נהרג עליו, מה שאין כן בישראל. +/השגת הראב”ד/ וכן אם הרג רודף וכו’. א”א קשיא ליה אבנר, עכ”ל.+

    There is no such a thing as a rodaf by a goy.

    #1967427
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    See Shut Mishneh Halachos (7,281) how he explains the difference between a Jew and a goy.

    #1967471
    Health
    Participant

    Avi K -“Chauvin did not claim that his life was in danger.”

    He doesn’t have to.
    All he has to do is Act!
    See my post above: 1967258

    #1967472
    DR.MIDDOS
    Participant

    MIDDOS ALERT MIDDOS ALERT:
    Killing people is not good middos!!

    #1967474
    Health
    Participant

    Bk613 -“Some times I wonder how your mind works”

    And I wonder if you have a Mind?!?

    #1967479
    Health
    Participant

    Huju -“According to Minnesota and US law, which (i) over all, has been good for the Jews, and (ii) has actual jurisdiction over Chauvin, Chauvin was not allowed to kill Floyd. Chauvin goes to jail”

    Typical Lib Lie!
    Minnesota does Not have the right to Violate Chauvin’s Rights.
    He was following Minneapolis Police Protocols at the time of Floyd’s death.
    Even though he should have removed his arm at the time of Floyd’s unconsciousness, he was looking at the bystanders to make sure he wasn’t attacked!
    According to the Torah, anyone involved with the prosecution of this Cop, is Oiver the 7 Mitzvos B’nai Noach!

    #1967504
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Health, I get more and more surprised by what you say. According to your Torah view a cop who is there to protect people can kill them and we cannot prosecute him.

    #1967509
    Health
    Participant

    RE -“Health, I get more and more surprised by what you say. According to your Torah view a cop who is there to protect people can kill them and we cannot prosecute him.”

    Don’t put words in my mouth!
    You can prosecute a Cop if they commit a crime.
    Chauvin did a good job.
    He had to restrain a violent Perp.
    They thought the Perp was presenting with Excited Delirium.
    Which means they think – that they have Super- Human Strength.
    5 cops sometimes can’t even restrain such a criminal with just Handcuffs.
    These cases usually Require a Hobble Restraint & a Spit mask!
    Chauvin was prosecuted & convicted to appease the Woke Mob & the DemonCrats who rely on their Vote!

    #1967648
    jackk
    Participant

    Health,
    “You can prosecute a Cop if they commit a crime.”
    That is EXACTLY what happened here.
    You see it differently, but you are not the judge or the jury here. They saw all the evidence presented and concluded that he committed a crime.
    The idea that he was prosecuted and convicted to appease the woke mob is simply a lie.
    It also flies in the face of the history of cops being ruled innocent by a jury even when there is tremendous pressure to convict.
    Amadou Diallo, Rodney King, Eric Garner , etc …

    #1967674
    bk613
    Participant

    “The idea that he was prosecuted and convicted to appease the woke mob is simply a lie.”
    It can definitely appear that way. People were literally lined up all around the country waiting to “peacefully protest” if they didn’t get the verdict they wanted. Every Police department in the country was on high alert. High ranking politicians including the president made it clear what the “right decision” was. I believe one of the alternate jurors even said in an interview that she would have said guilty to appease the mob. There is an interesting opinion piece in Newsweek from Mark Weaver comparing this trial to one in the 50’s where a murderer wound up walking free after a rushed trial was conducted to to appease the mob and was overturned on appeal.

    #1967692
    johnklets
    Participant

    1. According to the torah, it’s asur for a goy to kill another goy, and if he did kill he is getting capital punishment, even with one witness and no warning, as long it is clear that he was killing on purpose.

    2. If the other goy was threatening his life, then by no other choice he may (and should) kill him, but if he can save his life by other means like shoot him in the legs etc. he is not allowed to kill him.

    3. By this case, i don’t know the facs what realy happened, if Chauvin or other people were in life danger or not, as well about the intentions of Chauvin if he wanted or knew that Floyd is going to die. What is clear for me that Chauvin could not get a fair trial because of the situation, especialy by a jury who are simple people with no protection. Could be he is indeed guilty, but we can not know that because his trial could not be fair.

    4. This whole thing about black and racism is balony and nonsense. He did not get killed because of his blackness, but because of his actions and behaviour, the only discussion if according to his actions it was right to keep him restraint like this or not.

    5. The activists for BLM and so on will never be happy and always claim about blacks being discriminated in United States. We had already a popular black president voted in by all kinds of Americans for 2 terms, but for those activists who realy don’t care about black people blacks will always be discriminated, as long there are white people in the world. They should have open their minds and realize that in America everyone has equal rights, the only thing what counts is what chazal say מעשיך יקרבוך ומעשיך ירחקוך, it is clearly a political violent movement, supported by the elites who nebech took over the leadership in the u.s.

    #1967710
    lakewhut
    Participant

    jackk Macine Waters and Biden demanding a verdict go their way isn’t a mob tactic?

    #1967776
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Health, three other cops were there besides Chauvin, so argument of his strength does not stand.

    #1967783
    Participant
    Participant

    I don’t get why they couldn’t foot cuff him as well.

    @lakewhut Biden didn’t say anything til the jury was sequestered.

    #1967784
    Participant
    Participant

    and all he said was that it’s clear what9 the verdict should be.

    #1967800
    Health
    Participant

    Oh Jackk -“That is EXACTLY what happened here.”

    Name the Crime – Mr. Lib Liar!!!
    Arresting a Violent Perp is the Cops’ job!
    You libs think that the Job of a cop is to be a Meter Maid.

    “You see it differently, but you are not the judge or the jury here. They saw all the evidence presented and concluded that he committed a crime.”

    They were Compromised.
    Even Goyim know that there is such a thing as Negious.
    That’s why certain High-profiled cases are usually moved out of that Area!

    “The idea that he was prosecuted and convicted to appease the woke mob is simply a lie.
    It also flies in the face of the history of cops being ruled innocent by a jury even when there is tremendous pressure to convict. Amadou Diallo, Rodney King, Eric Garner , etc …”

    You Libs aren’t even embarrassed to post Bald- Faced Lies.
    I’m not going to discuss those cases, just going to refute your Lie!
    You sure have selective memory when it comes to Court Cases.
    How about the case with OJ?
    Do you agree with the Jury that the prosecution was tainted against OJ, because he’s Black?!?

    #1967831
    Health
    Participant

    RE -“Health, three other cops were there besides Chauvin, so argument of his strength does not stand”

    I addressed this already.
    It would behove you to read my whole post before responding.
    Unless you want to look Foolish in Front of everyone!
    From previous:
    “Which means they think – that they have Super- Human Strength.
    5 cops sometimes can’t even restrain such a criminal with just Handcuffs.
    These cases usually Require a Hobble Restraint & a Spit mask!”

    #1967894
    Avi K
    Participant

    Johnklets, only a duly constituted court may impose the death penalty. See my post #1967386.

    Health, by not claiming in at his trial he effectively admitted that it was not.

    #1967948
    Health
    Participant

    Avi K -“Health, by not claiming in at his trial he effectively admitted that it was not”

    The title of this topic is “According to the Torah,”

    Btw, it sure seems that the Defense Lawyer did a lousy job!

    #1968005
    Avi K
    Participant

    Health, if someone did not think that his life was in danger and he killed someone would it matter that his life really was in danger? In any case, from the record that definitely does not seem to be the case. Floyd was handcuffed at the time.

    #1968014
    johnklets
    Participant

    Avi K: A Ben Noach could get death penalty throgh a ruling of one judge. Look upin Gemara and Rambam.

    But anyway the question here was if al pi torah it is allowed to kill a goy, so my answer was that a goy killing a goy is from the Seven mitzvos Bnei Noach, and that there is death penalty for it. I was not talking about giving actually the death penalty in our time.

    #1968038
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Excellent thread

    What emerges from all this is that according to the Troah the only Goy mentioned in this thread that deserves the death penalty is Chauvin.
    He is the onyl one who killed anybody and no he was not authorized to do so, Yes Floyd resisted earlier but in the United States their is no blanket allowance for cops to kill people who resisted earlier (does nay country have such a policy?). If he accidently died while be subdued would be one thing. That is NOT what happened.
    AFTER Floyd was subdued and cuffed Chauvin held him there (to ensure his demise? I’m not sure why else) And just to be sure he was dead he continued to hold him there AFTER Floyd was unconscious. It cannot be argued that Floyd was still resisting then.

    So to sum up Chauvin killed an unconscious Floyd. He was not authorized to do so.

    According to the Torah Chauvin should be killed

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