accounting profession

It has to fit your personality. It is not just math, it is knowing numerous government rules, and then following them through and explaining/reminding your clients about them. I would first look at accountants you know and see if your personality is similar. Then talk to them about what they do during the day.

The good part of the lifestyle is that you can be an independent contractor serving multiple clients and be in control of your time, so that you can be there for your wife. children and hevrusa

My husband’s friend is an accountant in Lakewood and they have parnasah problems with the usual maybe 5 or 6 kids. My friend is an accountant but got promoted to something else and she seems to be doing very well, but not superrich, with her husband working as a therapist.

Unless you plan to climb the ladder to become the CFO or Director of Audit at a major company, or as another poster noted, build your own accounting firm, you are unlikely to make much more than $100k working as a staff accountant. While thats a good parnassah by national standards, it doesn’t go that far if you live in NYC or one of the other major metro areas and/or have a large family with several kids going to yeshiva or facing $50k/yr college tuition.

In the 1990s, I knew one CPA, in his own private practice,
with his own private clients, who charged $300 per hour.

Reb yosef is correct. A top notch CPA with his/her own practice can charge several hundred dollars/ hour for his/her own time plus profits earned from any Staff accountants in the firm but that is not the “norm” for most CPAs who work in accounting firms or as an inhouse accountant for a small-mid size business. Many CPAs move on to take positions in corporate finance departments and can earn even more. Again, that is still the exception, not the norm. Nonetheless, if you want your own business where you have control over your hours, its a great profession.

My CPA is an ehriche Yid that … does not charge by an hour. I have him on a modest monthly rate and he does routine stuff and deals with whatever emergencies happen within that rate. He has many clients, is very busy, earns enough but not much and will be able to answer the question whether he dealt with clients honestly. Shana Tova.

This is a very loaded question. It all depends on so many variables.
1) if you compare it to other professional “ corporate” like setting then the pay is really the same. It’s not any worse than an actuary, data scientist, IT, coder, and in some cases even a lawyer . Pay is the same.
2) Following up on #1, assuming you want to be a professional, are you the type that wants to work in a secular environment like an actuary or data scientist? Or do you prefer a “frum” setting ? If the later than accounting is the best profession. There are by far the most “frum” jobs.
3) following up on #2, because there are lots of frum opportunities you aren’t just stuck in a corporate setting. For other professions you’ll get capped at 150k-200k . (Although that comes with a nice 401k) In frum settings you can become a CFO or partial owner of a company where you’ll earn more .
4) Just beware that for a while you will struggle . You’ll earn sometimes just 60k when you start, may have to schlep into the city, loose programs and work long hours . It takes time to get to 150k even.
5) Lately there are people in other fields whether Amazon managers/ healthcare industry that do better initially but the jury is out there how high they can go and if this self created frum eco system can stick.
6) To peoples point that you need 150 credits, that’s a joke. You go to pcs and can get that in 18 months . Re the CPA it beats actuary exams or the bar.

People mention desire for “frum” environment, but also consider “ehrliche” environment also. I heard about a hesitant law student asking R Soloveitchik whether it is ok to go into a profession where many are involved in lies and other ad behaviors. He responded – “so, you will be a poor lawyer”.

Indeed, there is a need to have a profession that will support a family and let you be an ehrliche yid. There is no need to be at the top of a particular profession if this requires compromises. There are might be some jobs where even earning a modest living honestly is hard. For example (notionally, not saying that every business is in this predicament) you run a construction or re-modeling business – how do you compete on price with those who hire illegals and ignore codes? Or, running a nursing home or selling standard merchandize on amazon – where margins are small, you again can earn a living by skirting rules and quality controls, every undernourished elderly would feed you … In this sense, accounting seems like a moderate risk – of course, you can get in trouble by joining a company in fraud, but it is not that difficult to earn a living by being honest, and even keeping others honest. At the other side of the spectrum, if you strive to be at the top of your profession – being an engineer or a computer programmer might be better. In this jobs, someone who is good at his job will get paid more just for that, no tricks required.

@rescue37

From the perceived tone of your post you seem to be offended at what I wrote. I assure you that it was definitely not my intention to offend you or anyone else. (Note that I made sure to include that it is a respectable profession.)

I was sharing (with the original poster) my personal experience as to why it wouldn’t have been the best choice for me. Anyone reading that can decide if it’s applicable to them or not.

I’m going to address your response now.

1. The state that I was in at the time had either already changed the requirements to 150 credits or it was going to go into effect in the not so distant future. My friends who took the exams a few years later needed 150 credits. (Although the vast majority were Yeshiva credits which were a non-issue.)

2. When I left Kollel and got my first corporate job (a fresh college graduate with 2 actuarial exams) the going salary for an accountant with no experience who had just passed the CPA was between 50% and 60% of what I was getting. That extra amount was crucial at the time as I already had some kids and another one on the way.

3. True- the salary in any position will plateau at a certain point- unless someone is willing to take some extra risks and put it lots of extra effort, something I’m not willing to do. My CPA friends (except for the ones who became partners/CFOs…) seemed to have plateaued about ten years in.

In my role I’ve been able to steadily move up by working on more complex products and projects (within the same department) and without taking risks or putting in significantly extra amounts of time. As of last year I definitely hadn’t plateaued and if I’m at my plateau now- well it’s different being here after 20 years in than after ten. (My second kid just graduated college and I just paid the last tuition statement- think about what kind of annual pre tax raise that feels like.)

4. When I was in college there was little to no chance that I would have settled in the state I was attending Yeshiva and college. Had I studied for and passed the CPA exams in that state I definitely wouldn’t have had enough experience for it to have been easily transferable after I got married, settled in NY and was looking for my first corporate position.

Even though I’m mostly retired from the Coffee Room I try to respond to all comments meant for me. If you reply please address it to me (by putting the “@“ symbol followed by my name at the beginning of the post) – it’ll make it easier for me to find.

While not being a bokeh in accounting, I agree with Chaim that having an independent profession is valuable, and especially in our time. And so says Gemora requiring teaching umanut. Now, after having a profession, you can always try your hand in business, whether related to your profession or not, but you can always fall down back onto your profession. This will prevent anxiety for your family and yetzer hara to do business in a dishonest way.

@Chaim87

Thanks for your response.

At this point though, I don’t have much to add. When the OP posted the question I assumed that the thread would take the direction of those who it worked for giving some reasons as to why it worked for them and those who it didn’t work for would give some reasons as to why it didn’t work for them.

The OP would then have been able to get a better understanding of whether it would work for him/ her or not.

Non-political> Why did you decide that the Halacha follows R’ Yehudah vs. the Tana Kama (Stam Mishna)?

Re: Kiddushin 29 and 31. Other than the idea of learning Torah only, I think range of opinions in other places is either (1) trade or (2) trade and business is also OK … for example, last page of Kiddushin goes thru what kind of trades are good, no suggestions of business. for a simple answer, this is a great place to be machmir, as tanna kamma is not forbidding a trade! We are talking about danger of your children going OTD to become a bandit! I would sell a spodnik and use proceeds to pay tuition.

But to your question: quoting from online pages, so that you could look up sources, sorry 🙂
Gra (60): We learn from R. Yehudah.

Aruch ha’Shulchan (OC 156:1): A trade is a good thing. Many err and say that it is disgraceful. One is obligated to teach his son a trade. Many Tana’im and Amora’im had trades. The Medrash (Bereishis Rabah 74) says that Melachah is dearer than Zechus Avos.

Shulchan Aruch (OC 306:6): On Shabbos, one may discuss Shamayim’s desires, e.g. to arrange to hire someone to teach a trade to his son. One may discuss if he wants to be hired, but one may not hire him or mention the wage. Magen Avraham (13): This is a Mitzvah, for if he has no trade, he will steal.

Rif and Rosh (12a and 1:40): One must teach a trade to his son. R. Yehudah says, if one does not do so, it is as if he teaches him robbery.

pro-business – more in modern context
Igros Moshe (OC 2:111 DH b’Davar): Income is decided on Rosh Hashanah, but Hash-m decreed that people will receive it only through work or business
—-
At the end, this is of course highly personal and depends on current society conditions. I do see a number of people who neglected to get a profession and rely on business and miracles and many of them are not comfortable in life, worry, and have yetzer hara to do things in improper way (for a mild version, see a nearby thread on people hiring illegals because “there are no other options”).