Ad D’lo Yada for Teenage Boys

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  • #1693452

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    How can it be that teenage boys, who are in fact adult men, are not supposed to drink large amounts of alcohol on Purim? The only explanation I’ve heard is from certain former teenage boys (AKA adult men), who claim that they realized in later adulthood that as teenagers, they didn’t really know half the things they thought they knew, so teenagers only have to drink half as much. But half the alcohol is still quite a lot of alcohol.

    #1693543

    Joseph
    Participant

    According to my copy of the Shulchan Aruch, 13 year olds are halachicly subject to the same chiyuvim as 19 year olds and 29 year olds.

    #1693555

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    They have a lesser chiyuv. The Gra says ad delo yada is that they lose the ability to understand that as great s arur haman is, baruch mordechai is even greater. Teenagers need less alcohol to reach that level.

    Also the concern of the pri chadash applies to them more, that of behaving like a ferd once they drink.

    #1693584

    Some have a “minhag” to smoke on Purim which clearly demonstrates “ad dlo yada’ – they have no idea what they are doing.

    But. if smoking anyway, in states that marijuana is legal (dina d’malchusa), it would quickly get them to the the mind alteriing state of ad dlo yada.

    Same applies to teenage girls (over bas mitzva) that want to be yotzeh the chiyuv of ad dlo yada.

    #1693612

    shtarkyid247
    Participant

    it seems to be an ongoing issue for some time now, but us buchrim will be buchrim

    #1693615

    The little I know
    Participant

    Food (or drink) for thought:

    If someone has no clue about the difference between Arur Haman and Boruch Mordechai, is there an obligation to drink? He is at the state of ad delo yoda without ingesting anything.

    #1693616

    Speak to any hatzoloh member who has driven a teenager to the ER for alcohol poisoning. The RAMAH, also quoted in the aruch hashulchan that one is yotza AD DLO ADA by falling asleep. Once again one can use wine and not hard liquor to come to ad dlo yada.

    #1693632

    shtarkyid247
    Participant

    interesting thought

    #1693668

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Perhaps they should “ad-dlo-yada” with their mothers.

    #1693669

    LOTR92
    Participant

    What’s the problem if teens drink? People get drunk every once in a while, purim is a good time to get drunk. Let teens be teens, they get drunk sometimes whether you like it or not.

    #1693670

    How about instead of people telling everyone not to drink because its dangerous, start showing everyone how to drink safely. People are going to drink no matter what you tell them, so why not have them do it safely.

    #1693715

    1
    Participant

    Do you follow arbitrary are rules that are wrotten by governments who are pro everything that’s anti the Torah or by Chazal. בן שלש עשרה למיצוות

    #1693787

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Lowerourtuition, speak to a firefighter who had to pull someone out of a burning house, and don’t light the menorah on chanukah.

    #1694248

    lower – Speak to any hatzoloh member who has driven a teenager to the ER for alcohol poisoning.

    Ya,and before you eat that cholent speak to any cardiologist that did open heart on clogged arteries.

    ANd before you burn that chometz speak to any Haltzala member that each year treats burn injuries from biur chametz.

    And before you build that sukah – do you know how many falls and broken limbs (plus hammer smashed thumbs)?

    And better not start dancing at the wedding before you check your blood pressure…

    Judaism is a dangerous religion.

    Play safe.

    #1694099

    The little I know
    Participant

    1:

    Don’t be foolish. You surely have enough saichel to know that anyone that cannot drink safely should not. Our Chachomim never instructed us to do dangerous things. We do not question whether a boy past 13 is obligated to fulfill all mitzvos. But only if it can be done without risk or danger. There is a margin of risk that adults take because they can handle it. Teens cannot. And I bet you have met a few adults who also cannot take such risk. Then they should not. Would you be happier to see the discussion by a posek on that? The contemporary poskim have published their tshuvos on this. And they all state openly and boldly that danger is not part of the mitzvos of Purim.

    #1694181

    The little I know
    Participant

    LOTR92:

    You wrote: “People get drunk every once in a while, purim is a good time to get drunk. Let teens be teens, they get drunk sometimes whether you like it or not.”

    Whoa! Firstly, stating that it’s acceptable to get drunk is disgusting, and is NOT at all what Purim or anything in Torah is about. You are relegating Purim to be a zman when boundaries are lifted, as if we feel some internal pressure to get bombed, but suppress it because it’s not nice. Come Purim, these limitations are lifted. Sorry, but you will find a real difficulty in finding a single talmid chochom who can condone such an attitude as consistent with Torah value. Drunkeness is called to’eyva by the Rambam, and he states that any avodas Hashem done in a drunken state is not only not a mitzvah, but is to’eyva. Teens will be teens, and they can be expected to do some really stupid things. But when these actions involve risk and danger, there is no heter to dismiss it as teens will be teens. And it is far worse to suggest they are performing a mitzvah. Yecccchhhh!

    #1694331

    1
    Participant

    Who says teens cannot any more than adults? That’s bunk. News flash: most Jews have their 1st drink during their teen years and usually from their fathers. Anybody who truly cannot handle a drink, shouldn’t. If you can’t, it means you were sheltered or weren’t brought up right.

    #1694387

    Maybe you shouldn’t use knives either because you might get a cut. Having had the experience of sitting in an ER with a child drying out from alcohol poisoning (and I personally do not drink) I have a great sensitivity to this issue. So yes I am more than just an “arm chair qurterback”.

    #1694558

    briskboyz
    Participant

    ad Dlo Yada is of course shayich to buchrim. so many taka try to take the easy way out the dont chap want an importent mitzvah and theme this is. nu would you skip the chulent on shabbos kal vchomer the booze ( a good bourban is my personal favorite @ravdovidhockerz ) on purim?!?!?!
    BOYS DO YOU CHAP THE MATZIV????
    this is mamish pikuach nefesh
    buchrim if you need access to the geshmake stuff please call me if enough respond ill host a party(IM IN ERETZ YISROEL NOT SHUSHAN!!!!!!) as great as achashvarosh
    itll be nutz get PUMPED
    burich hashem

    #1694560

    briskboyz
    Participant

    ad Dlo Yada is of course shayich to buchrim. so many taka try to take the easy way out the dont chap want an importent mitzvah and theme this is. nu would you skip the chulent on shabbos kal vchomer the booze ( a good bourban is my personal favorite @ravdovidhockerz ) on purim?!?!?!
    BOYS DO YOU CHAP THE MATZIV???
    this is mamish pikuach nefesh
    buchrim if you need access to the geshmake stuff please call me if enough respond ill host a party(IM IN ERETZ YISROEL NOT SHUSHAN!!!!!!) as great as achashvarosh
    itll be nutz get PUMPED
    burich hashem

    #1694595

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Lowerourtuition, your great sensitivity isn’t relevant to the topic, just like, for example, the fact that I had a malicious dentist once and know someone who was wrongly prescribed a prescription medication doesn’t mean that I get to say medical professionals should be banned.

    #1694751

    ovadyachill
    Participant

    @briskboyz Im takka down. let me knwo the details

    #1694764

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Briskboyz, remember, you still only need to drink half as much.

    #1694933

    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    You need to have daas in order to lose it on purim. If a person is not at that mature level, regardless of age, they are not accomplishing anything.

    #1694979

    adocs
    Participant

    Looks like briskboyz is already there

    #1694903

    LOTR92
    Participant

    the little I know,
    I’m saying people are people, and people get drunk sometimes. purim happens to be the once a year when it is somewhat acceptable, but only it is done safely and responsibly. I agree that isn’t he point of purim, but the reality is, to a lot of teens, that is what they look forward to. Purim isn’t a time where “regulations are lifted”, but a time when someone can get drunk once a year, responsibly, and not have a problem with it. So yes, let teens be teens, once a year of getting drunk isn’t so bad, and purim is a safe time to do so because there are people looking out for drunk people, like all the sober drivers out, who drive very carefully so hey don’t hurt anyone.

    #1695159

    1
    Participant

    Adults are more likely to drive drunk than teens.

    #1695210

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Mishna brura is quite clear that there is no heter to be mevatel mitzvos deoraysa . Many teenagers don’t end up saying krias shma shel arvis and are yatza scharo behefseido. If you’re makpid to go by the mishna brura year round, the why should Purim be any different?

    #1695222

    The little I know
    Participant

    LOTR92:

    You wrote: “. I agree that isn’t he point of purim, but the reality is, to a lot of teens, that is what they look forward to.”

    The problem is that this is backwards chinuch, and gives an opposite message. We are supposed to fulfill mitzvos to ascend in kedusha. Purim is such an opportunity, a precious gift. It is sacrilegious to allow Purim to be a time when the disgusting and abhorrent behaviors are considered acceptable. Drunken revelry is never a part of Yiddishkeit. Wine is gladdening, and that’s the drinking of Purim. Being permissive or dismissive of revelry is not consistent with Purim, and conveys a completely opposite message. Mistakes here carry risks of terrible consequences.

    #1695271

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    TLIK, drinking Ad D’lo Yada isn’t being “permissive”, it’s being stringent.

    #1695289

    The one thing I don’t see in all these threads is the fact that the “chiyuv” of Ad dlo yada is brought in the hilchos of the seudas Purim…..why does everyone think one is allowed to walk around both on leil Yud Daled and during the entire day in this state?

    #1695280

    The little I know
    Participant

    RebYidd:

    I am fatigued from the constant barrage that drunkenness is somehow a chumrah. You choose to define ad delo yoda as smashing drunk, in disagreement with the overwhelming majority of poskim, including the Ramo, and all the way to the most contemporary, including the Mishna Berura. The mitzvah is not the drinking, and it is ignorant to proclaim it as such. The mitzvah is simcha, as stated clearly in the Megillah. The Chachomim instructed us to achieve that with the aid of drinking. You are confusing the medium with the goal, and that is irrational, dishonest, and simply wrong. Even the Ramoh did not say anything about passing out, just sleep. And your efforts to try to be “frummer” than the Ramoh and the Mishna Berura are frankly revolting.

    I am not saying that bochurim above 13 should not drink at all. i am saying that the idea of ad delo yoda, as some commenters here in the CR wish to define it, is a threat to the safety of teens whose judgment is poor enough without the BAC.

    #1695305

    Meno
    Participant

    The mitzvah is not the drinking, and it is ignorant to proclaim it as such. The mitzvah is simcha, as stated clearly in the Megillah.

    Who says they are both the same mitzvah?

    #1695315

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    TLIK, I never said I define it as “smashing drunk”. That was all your idea. And the Ramoh’s way involves drinking.

    #1695397

    The little I know
    Participant

    RebYidd:

    I am not against drinking. I am against the shikrus that is incompatible with fulfillment of mitzvos. Someone noted earlier that if one’s drinking renders them unable to remember to daven Maariv and recite Kriyas Shema properly, then it is not a mitzvah at all. Ad delo yoda does not mean incapacitated or unable to function. Returning to the OP, teenagers that have the capacity to stop before approaching the status of risk, fine. Those that cannot do not get the dispensation that they are fulfilling a mitzvah and are therefore exempt. I cannot speak for generations ago, as i obviously was not there. But most of today’s teens lack the maturity of judgment to handle this well. The tragedy stories are told afterward, but are outdated in preparation for the following Purim.

    Do you know how to set an appropriate limit for drinking among teens so that no one gets near danger? I do not profess to know the answer, and a standard one won’t really do. So someone needs to exercise that judgment and create the needed boundaries. And the Poskim are clear that one who cannot drink without danger should not.

    #1695606

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    The amount that it takes to fall asleep is more than it takes for a teen to reach Ad D’lo Yada without sleeping.
    Teens can remain under parental supervision while they are drinking. They certainly shouldn’t “go around” drunk. (Nobody should.)

    #1695791

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The one thing I don’t see in all these threads is the fact that the “chiyuv” of Ad dlo yada is brought in the hilchos of the seudas Purim…..why does everyone think one is allowed to walk around both on leil Yud Daled and during the entire day in this state?

    According to the מקדש ישראל, the mitzvah to drink is not only during the seudah.

    #1695963

    The little I know
    Participant

    DY:

    Great question, and great reference.

    One can sip wine all day and fulfill what this sefer suggests. I offer a few points to help understand why it is included in SA under the halachos of Seuda.

    According to the Megillah, there are FOUR mitzvos on Purim, not 5 or more. They are reading Megillah, Matanos Lo’evyonim, Mishloach Manos, and Seuda. The Megillah, written by Mordechai and Esther, al pi Ruach Hakodesh, did not specify others. There are many things that became part of the celebration mood of Simcha, including the dressing up in costumes, etc. And the Chachomim proposed חייב אינש לאבסומי. These are not additional mitzvos, but are characterizations of the existing ones. This is not its own mitzvah, but an aspect of seuda. Whether this means even not during the meal, as suggested in this sefer, or not, is irrelevant. It remains a part of the seuda, and is not its own mitzvah. And I can repeat my position that if someone is looking to be “machmir” on mitzvos of Purim, begin with the ones spelled out in the Megillah.

    Next, the drinking that is done on Leil Purim is not part of the mitzvah of Seuda. It can be Simcha if it remains within limits. The drunken revelry that often fills the streets is not a mitzvah at all, and is against Torah value. I am not against imbibing to celebrate in a manner that is a source of pride to HKB”H. Yelling in the streets ain’t it. Making a night of drinking risks being unable to respectfully fulfill the mitzvos of Purim by day. And the sefer you referenced here speaks openly about how drinking never exempts anyone from mitzvos, except after the fact, and bringing oneself to that state is an aveiroh.

    #1696106

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    One can sip wine all day and fulfill what this sefer suggests.

    Not really. He holds you’re supposed to get quite drunk, and that won’t do it.

    He definitely says that unless you know that you won’t do an aveirah in your drunkenness, you shouldn’t get to that point.

    I also agree that anything more than “simcha” is not required, or appropriate, at night. Not drunkenness.

    But, let’s be honest. Go through all of his teshuvos there, you’ll see that the ikar mitzvah is to get very drunk.

    #1696203

    TAS
    Participant

    To little I know: According to most Rishomin, they learn that one must get drunk. They all argue about the amount. ONE Rishon, Rabbinue Efraim, says that is forbidden. However, we don’t hold like him. The S”A holds literally Ad Dlo Yada and the Rama mentions the more lenient pasak. However, he ends off with “whatever you have a LOT or a little as long as you intend for kovad Shmayim”. It is clear that the Rama is saying that there is a mitzah to get smashed on purim. You can’t complain on being get drunk. You can only complain against the people who are only fulfilling the first part of his statement and not the second half.

    #1696280

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Mishna brura is rather explicit that there is no heter to violate other mitzvos while fulfilling this one. It’s a milsa yadua that many young drunk bochurim miss krias shma shel arvis and krias shma shel shacharis, never bentch properly, etc. As per the explicit mishna brura, Shichruso Shel Lot is wrong. The yeshivish people in this thread pretending it’s an MO cchumra instead of a mishna brura halacha are mind-boggling. Halacha bemkoma omedes.
    This is forgetting about vechay bahem being doche yom kippur, kol shekein a mitzvah derabanan that is only according to some shittos.

    #1696402

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    FWIW, I will not be getting drunk this year.
    I did not get drunk last year, or the year before or the year before that.
    In fact, I have never been drunk in my life and have no desire to start now.

    If that makes me a rasha… so be it.

    The Wolf

    #1696435

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Wolfishmusings, if you consider yourself a rasha, you have already reached the point of ad
    d’lo yada, so there is no need to get drunk.

    #1696466

    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    Everyone jumps to extremes. If i dont drink i must be a rasha.
    What sheer utter nonsense. What lunacy. What a clown show. Everything is kill me if dont do a certain mitzvah.
    What about this mitzhvah huh huh huh? What about that morzvah, huh huh huh? In your face in your face!
    Ooooooh i shtucht you out with my.knowledge, i one upped you!…..ooooh ooooh ooooh I got you now!

    Regarding this mitzvah of ad dlo yada, its all about your way of thinking. That has to change on purim. If you keep going through this same ridiculous conversation year after after year after year avter year after year after year after year.
    And then it turns into fighting and arguements, not rischa dioraisa.
    And, for example, someone like joseph, starts flapping his mouth and is michazek machlokes. Sick, ridiculous, absolutely missing the point of achdus by purim.
    כאיש אחד בלב אחד. קיימו וקבלו.

    You are doing the wrong kind of ad dlo yada. Getting yourself to a point of no achdus.

    Just stop it already. Everyone agrees alcohol can be dangerous, and just like you would tell your kid to go to sleep if he was up learning too late, you need to know your limitations. and someone can start chiming in, talmud torah kineged kulam, so we are reshaim for stopping a kid from learning, is an idiot. An אי דעת.
    Know thyself comes before your capability to know Hashem

    We need to drink, with out endangering ourselves. Everyone agres with that.

    This should be the end of the discussion.

    #1696542

    LOTR92
    Participant

    The little I know
    When you were a teen, did you do everything exactly the way you were supposed to? I didn’t. Most people didn’t.
    Teens want to get drunk. Teens want to do a lot more than get drunk but most frum teens don’t.
    Is it right? No.
    Is it the reality? Yes.
    Is it soooo terrible? No.

    #1696627

    Chossid
    Participant

    Where does it say to drink alcohol, if I’m not mistaking is says to drink יין , can someone clarify?

    If Bochurim look forward to Purim because they can drink, it’s a big problem, bemaileh if they know the difference between ברוך מרדכי and ארור המן, and they want to mekayim the mitzva of adeloi yodah on Purim find, but what it looks like to me, from the many communities I have been to, that it has become a think to drink, and that’s wrong, just like it’s wrong all year round the same goes on Purim.

    Bochurim have to be thought what is Purim, what exactly are we celebrating, only then they will efsher be more responsible and do it in the right setting, not going wild in the streets with kalis roish.

    #1696671

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    When someone is drunk on the street, is the problem that he is drunk, or that he is on the street?

    #1696897

    Chossid
    Participant

    Really depends why he’s drinking.
    But in general if he’s drunk on the street, I would assume if wasn’t drinking for the right purpose.

    #1696969

    kollelman
    Participant

    עד ולא עד בכלל

    #1696986

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    The Aruch Hashulchan discusses what to drink

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9102&st=&pgnum=473

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