Adjoining property is doing extension- beam is on my property (residential)
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- This topic has 53 replies, 23 voices, and was last updated 5 years, 3 months ago by CTLAWYER.
August 5, 2012 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #604433
Adjoining property is doing extension- beam is on my property, about a foot (residential).
Were in shock.
Where do I begin? Which lawyer (professional but aggressive) is best for this? Im in Brooklyn.
What has happened to others with this situation?August 5, 2012 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #890095
If it is a Yid, make sure you got to Beis Din. Taking a Yid to arkoyos (goyish court) is a massive aveira. (I think the halacha would even allow someone to kill someone who did that.)August 6, 2012 12:30 am at 12:30 am #890096pcozMember
Is your neighbour frum?August 6, 2012 12:48 am at 12:48 am #890097yoyo56Member
why do u have to do anything abt it?
you ging to go to a non jewish court?!? what are you? maybe kindly use you words! dont rush to a non jewish court!August 6, 2012 2:52 am at 2:52 am #890098
If it is a Yid, make sure you got to Beis Din. Taking a Yid to arkoyos (goyish court) is a massive aveira. (I think the halacha would even allow someone to kill someone who did that.)
You are then, hereby, invited to come and kill me. I once called the cops on a Jew (well, his car, specifically) without asking permission from a Rav or a Bais Din.
The WolfAugust 6, 2012 3:00 am at 3:00 am #890099
Its easy to make such an invitation knowing you are unknown to the invitee, so he couldn’t accept your fictitious invitation.August 6, 2012 3:09 am at 3:09 am #890100
choppy (or whatever you call yourself these days),
My email address is well known. Send me an email and I’ll be more than happy to make myself available to you for Torah-justice.
The WolfAugust 6, 2012 4:31 am at 4:31 am #890101
Is this always the case, or are there exceptions? First of all no Bais Din can do a survey of the properties- and only lawyers get that done, I believe.
Very frum, Torah abiding lawyers dont ever accept cases when one Jew fights another? I dont think so.August 6, 2012 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #890102
Azoi: What lawyers do to make a buck, including so-called “Very frum, Torah abiding lawyers”, does not halacha make or justify.
Yes, you are required to go to Beis Din, not arkoyos (goyish court).August 6, 2012 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #890103BaalSechelParticipant
Just a quick question: Did you speak to your nieghbor nicely? Did you point out to him that he is protruding into your property? Perhaps he is willing to provide some sort of financial compensation that you can both agree upon. I have a lot of expeience in dealing with Choshen Mishpat, and often the solutions that leave most people happy are calm, negotiated ones (never let yourself be rushed into a solution; you will only regret it). If you have a wise Rav with experience, he may be able to help come up with an acceptable deal. Don’t forget, at the end of the day you two will still be neighbors, possibly for the rest of your lives. You owe it to yourself to deal with this in a calm manner, being as friendly as the situation allows for.August 6, 2012 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #890104PizzaPizzaParticipant
If your property is being damaged and certainly if there is a physical risk of danger due to your neighbor’s encroaching on your property you should immediately dial 311 (in NYC) and file a complaint with the Department of Buildings. If your neighbors complain tell them you relied on a famous Aruch Hashulchan in Choshen Mishpat 388. If there is no danger and you can live with the temporary encroachment I advise that you grin and bear it.August 6, 2012 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #890105agittayidParticipant
I would contact a lawyer as soon as possible. It will be easier to resolve the issue if the construction work is stopped before it gets to far along.August 6, 2012 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #890106shlishiMember
The Aruch Hashulchan in Choshen Mishpat 388 does NOT allow reporting it to the authorities.August 6, 2012 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #890107
As in this world is our temporary dwelling?
This is the foundation FOR MANY BRICKS TO COME…August 6, 2012 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #890108ny100kParticipant
You don’t clarify if this is a temporary beam during construction, or one that will stay permanently.
If it’s temporary, and the neighbor is frum, then you should just let it go, even though what they did was not so nice. Also keep in mind that they may not even realize it’s on your property or the contractor may have done it without them knowing.
If however it’s permanent, then you need to take action. I suggest consulting your ruv about din torah vs. 311. While it may not be assur to call 311, assuming you live al pi tora, then you should consult a rav.August 8, 2012 1:12 am at 1:12 am #890109
Apparently choppy doesn’t want to take care of this moser. Anyone else want to?
The WolfAugust 8, 2012 3:32 am at 3:32 am #890110
A) Calling the police shut off an alarm blaring in the dead of the night is not mesira.
B) You can only kill the moser before the mesira.
C) One mustn’t kill a moser (when permissible/required) if it’ll endanger his freedom.August 8, 2012 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #890111
A) Calling the police shut off an alarm blaring in the dead of the night is not mesira.
Source? I cost the fellow money as his car was ticketed. If that’s not being moser the mammon of a yid, then I don’t know what is. The fact is that I did not go to a Rav or Bais Din before doing so.
B) You can only kill the moser before the mesira.
I find that hard to believe. You hear enough stories about mosrim being threatened well after the fact.
C) One mustn’t kill a moser (when permissible/required) if it’ll endanger his freedom.
Source? Do you also not have to perform a bris milah on your son if it might endanger your freedom?
The wolfAugust 8, 2012 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #890112
Wolf: Logically, based on your above comments, you hold that if someone breaks into your home, you must convene a Beis Din rather than call the police. I’m not such a right-wing fanatic, so I disagree with your position.August 8, 2012 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #890114yaakov doeParticipant
One must assume that this beam is only temporerilly on the writers property. In NYC there are front yard, side yard and rear yard requirements.August 9, 2012 12:02 am at 12:02 am #890115
The Satmar brothers have been slugging it out for years in court over their yerusha. No one has killed themAugust 9, 2012 1:13 am at 1:13 am #890116BaalSechelParticipant
I assume that everyone invoking the concept of moser is joking. Going to arkaos has nothing to do with mesira. It is a violation of “asher tosim lifneihem”.August 9, 2012 1:36 am at 1:36 am #890117147Participant
choppy:- Taking a Yid to arkoyos (goyish court) is a massive aveira.
I think that you Choppy are living in a dream world. In the ideal world you would be right, but in today’s contemporary society, Beth Din is not even an option. Lamentably, they are corrupt thru & thru, and time may also be of the essence.
Do you Azolis belong to a Union? If so, your union may have a lawyer at a very reduced rate.
You may also wish to study the very 1st Mishna & accompanying Talmud in Bobo Basra, which discusses this very topic & issue.
With Parshas Ki Sovo literally around the corner, there is only 1 massive Aveiro that I can think of, and it is certainly not going to Arko’us, but simply being “Masig Gevul Re’Eihu” which is 1 of the 11 or 12 curses in Ki Sovo, depending on how these 11/12 curses are counted.
Failing that, you may wish to consult a professional mediator or binding arbitration.August 9, 2012 3:15 am at 3:15 am #890118
Logically, based on your above comments, you hold that if someone breaks into your home, you must convene a Beis Din rather than call the police.
No, because someone breaking into your home is assumed to be willing to do you harm. That’s the whole point of the halacha of ba bamachteres.
The WolfAugust 9, 2012 3:21 am at 3:21 am #890119
Goying to goyishe court without a heter from a beis din is a free ticket to gehenim.August 9, 2012 3:54 am at 3:54 am #890120Sam2Participant
Choppy: That’s not what R’ Schachter says.
Oh, and see the Tzitz Eliezer (it’s somewhere in the beginning of either 18 or 19; maybe it’s Siman 3 in one of those?).August 9, 2012 4:27 am at 4:27 am #890121ohr chodeshMember
Halacha prohibits going to arkoyos even if the secular court would rule according to Halacha. So how does RHS negate that Halacha?August 9, 2012 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #890122
Going to goyishe court without a heter from a beis din is a free ticket to gehenim.
Does this include Yerusha cases?March 4, 2018 8:53 am at 8:53 am #1480203CTLAWYERParticipant
To all those warning of sins an prohibitions of using secular courts:
Engaging an attorney does not mean this will go to court. Less than 10% of client activity results in a lawsuit.
The OP should see a land use attorney. This specialist will draft and send a letter to the abutting landowner pointing out the civil laws and regulations that are being violated. Also, potential civil fines and liability in tort law if the offending act does not cease immediately. An offer to allow temporary trespass in exchange for compensation could be offered.March 4, 2018 8:54 am at 8:54 am #1480201yitzchokmParticipant
What ended up happening? It’s been 5 years.March 4, 2018 9:24 am at 9:24 am #1480220
While this is an old post
What do people do if a Yid is blocking your driveway with their car
Do you call the Beis Din or do you call the Police?March 4, 2018 9:35 am at 9:35 am #1480227
Neither. I put a note on his windshield.March 4, 2018 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #1480621
that doesnt help if you have to move your car nowMarch 4, 2018 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #1480639
that doesnt help if you have to move your car now
Neither does calling the police. It usually takes hours until they come to give a ticket, and then hours until the tow truck comes.March 4, 2018 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #1480343iacisrmmaParticipant
I double park two family cars next to his car.March 4, 2018 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #1480381yitzchokmParticipant
Blocking the driveway isn’t comparable. That’s a question of accessMarch 4, 2018 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #1480530Takes2-2tangoParticipant
Put a “stop work order” on that property until its all sorted out. Bais din can not offer u this and its not mesira to have a stop work order filed.March 6, 2018 6:30 am at 6:30 am #1481862
Someone who has the chutzpah to violate building and zoning codes and infringe on your property is probably not going to pay attention to a toothless beis din. He’s also not conforming to building permits , if he got one at all.March 6, 2018 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1482228
I might even be worse if a Shtebel was building an illegal building, not only would Beis not stop it, they might even repremand you for trying to stop constructionMarch 6, 2018 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1482253
It is prohibited to utilize secular courts or authorities based upon an assumption the other party will not agree to go to Beis Din. One cannot go to secular court without first obtaining a heter arkaos.March 7, 2018 7:51 am at 7:51 am #1483243CTLAWYERParticipant
As I stated in my earlier post, using an attorney to compel compliance with laws and regulations does not mean going to court.
A strongly worded letter pointing out the violations with a cc notice on the bottom showing Building and zoning enforcement agencies usually does the trick very quickly. One doesn’t actually have to cc those agencies.
This winter our next door neighbor’s grandson (not Jewish) decided he was going to operate a plow business. He stored all his equipment in grandma’s backyard. Not only was it unsightly, but lots of middle of the night noise occurs when he hooks up plows, sand spreaders, etc. and leaved heavy diesel trucks idling in the yard.
A phone call was ignored, I sent a letter showing the violations caused by storing commercial equipment and vehicles in a residential zone and marked CC Zoning Enforcement. Everything was cleared out within 4 days.March 7, 2018 9:13 am at 9:13 am #1483259Takes2-2tangoParticipant
Put a “stop work order” on that property until its all sorted out. Bais din can not offer u this and its not mesira to have a stop work order filed..March 7, 2018 9:47 am at 9:47 am #1483268
It most certainly is mesira to get a government stop order.March 7, 2018 12:09 pm at 12:09 pm #1483449
Joseph, your concept of mesirah is rooted in Czarist Russi. In the Pale of Settlement, no Jew could get fair treatment in the Russian court system. Conversely, the Beis Dins were effective and empowered to enforce their decisions. Consequently, Jews were forbidden to take another Jew to the governments courts.
Contrast that to what we experience in the U.S. . Civil Court, despite their inadequacies, are not antisemitic and , generally speaking, Jew can get a fair shake .
Beis dins, however, are toothless, powerless and have thier own inadequacies. Their decisions cannot be enforced. I’m sorry but if a frum neighbor is doing something wrong, I’m taking him to civil courtMarch 7, 2018 12:20 pm at 12:20 pm #1483461
The concept of mesira is baked into the Torah and Halacha. It long predated Czarist Russia.March 7, 2018 1:04 pm at 1:04 pm #1483478
There could be very good reasons why someone would want a stop work order. Putting construction equipment on your property makes you liable for any damages that occurMarch 7, 2018 1:05 pm at 1:05 pm #1483475PhilParticipant
“It most certainly is mesira to get a government stop order.”
You’re not a posek, lawyer or expert in any subject. You occasionally repeat a bit of information from Rabbi Miller tapes and you constantly express disdain for any kind of secular study. Yet, you make emphatic halachic pronouncements about real-world situations and criticize people without any real knowledge or sources. Does spouting fake Halacha make you feel superior?March 7, 2018 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #1483483
Phil, you might be 100% right, but I’m curious as to why you didn’t level similar criticism against the posters who paskened that it’s muttar from their boichs.March 7, 2018 1:34 pm at 1:34 pm #1483489
DY , I’m guessing it’s because unlike Joseph telling others what they can’t do, I’m only saying what I would doMarch 7, 2018 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #1483496
First of all, your conclusion, that you would do it, is based a set of facts and halachic assumptions which are just as unsourced as Joseph’s.
Secondly, you’re not the only one to post that it’s muttar.
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