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Did you see it?
Are you mad?
The question was:
Young married wife is writing, that her husband works in afternoon and “learns” in morning, but doesn’t get out of bed, until late. She writes that she sometimes wakes him at 10:30, but he doesn’t get up.
The answers were all basically saying ways to encourage him to learn.
(We will ignore the one which suggested he join a shiur with his friends so that he will have “peer pressure”. Peer pressure! As if that is what this guy is missing in his life!)
Now, what do you think is going on?
This guy doesn’t want to learn. He hates learning, because he is not good at it, and has been told his whole life that being good in learning is the only reason to feel good about yourself.
So he is “learning” half a day, because he thinks that his wife will not respect him if he doesn’t.
And he is right. She won’t. Definitely after reading the responses.
The response should have been to tell him that she respects him for who he is, and will continue to respect him if he leaves yeshiva totally.
Instead, the authors only fanned the flames by reinforcing her ideas that her husband needs to be learning.
I assume they will get divorced in a couple years.
pba — You seem to have had some bad experiences in your life on this issue, and I’m sorry. However it seems to me you did not read either the question or answer with an open mind. The issue seems to be that this guy has trouble getting up in the morning — not that he hates learning! In fact one of the respondents even qualified their response by saying “I’m assuming your husband knowshe should be learning and davening AND WISHES TO DO SO.” (emphasis mine) In other words, they are not discussing a guy who doesn’t want to learn, but rather one who has trouble over coming his yetzer harah to get out of bed in the morning. Is it so difficult for your to understand that even someone who wants to learn and daven bzman may find it difficult to get up? Why must it be “he hates learning, because he is not good at it”? I personally know of cases of boys who are excellent in learning and learn very shtark all day but who have trouble getting up for shachris.
She also explained that in general her husband is a “night owl” who stays up late, making the problem worse. Many of the respondents addressed that issue with recommendations to switch to an evening chavrusah instead of learning in the morning. The “peer pressure” response was in connection with recommending he join a daf yomi shuir — certainly not saying he must stay in yeshiva! Even if he leaves yeshiva totally, as per your suggestion, I would assume his wife would want him to be davening with a minyan in the morning and bein Kovaih Ittim, but of which are obligations even for men not in yeshiva!
I actually found the responses to be mostly reasonable and flexible, and none of them implied that her husband must be in Kollel. They all agreed however, that it is somewhat reasonable for a women to expect her husband to be getting up in the morning, davening, and learning something at some point of the day. They also made clear that she is limited in her ability to “force” this on her husband, and warned that criticism and nudging are not appropriate, and tried to give positive ways for her to be encouraging. Doesn’t sound like the path to divorce in my book. . .
i didn’t have a problem with him not learning, my problem was what about davening shacharis on time. i agree that obviously he wasn’t enjoying learning, as he was highly productive in his work.
on the other hand, shouldn’t a guy learn something? how should a wife encourage a guy to learn the something that he needs to learn? or should she do as you suggest and simply accept him for who he is? i read the answers, and i still don’t know which is proper thing.
All of these questions are made up anyways.
popa_bar_abba:
Good morning,
I only read the question and the first response. I did not see what you see. She claims he’s a “night owl”. Therein may lay the problem. If one goes to sleep late, they wake up late.
So, the first response was to motivate him to get up early, through making him a good breakfast (and between lines I assume, to be a pleasant wife).
It may be that he’s good at learning, but he’s simply more motivated to put bread on his table (working from home as a night owl), or that he’s overcome from financial pressures which clout his head for learning.
BTW, are you at Starbucks today?
I think the Mishpacha prints way too many oversimplified (and therefore irresponsible) articles.The article that prompted me to call them once, was the one about a lady with an abusive husband who apparently turned into a little tzadik AS SOON AS SHE FIXED ALL HER FLAWS.I told them they had better put in another article balancing that out with one based on reality or ALL my relatives would be photocopying that story and mailing it to me!I even offered to meet with them in person.They humored me for a few minutes on the phone,this one told me to call that one…b’kitzur,nothing came of it.
Did anyone care to ask if there were any medical issues? I didn’t read the article but maybe he is just tired. OSA can cause excessive daytime sleepiness. Metabolic issues can be at play here too. Does he snore? its a big giveaway that he has OSA if he does. I had OSA all through yeshiva. It made me foggy all the time, unable to concentrate, and impossible to wake up in the AM. Just a thought.
OMG eclipse thats horrible!!!!!!!!!
I can not read these kinda magazines, they make me wanna scream at someone..
PB- How exactly will ther situation improve if she tells him she respects him no matter what he does?? In my opinion that would be enabling him to do whatever he pleases.. A guy who isnt being productive will never be respected in a wifes eyes- learning or working. I am sure that even if she is being brainwashed that learning is the only thing that is respectable, If he goes out and gets himself a life every morning She Will Respect It. She might still wish for sum other fairy tale fantasy, but she will respect a guy whos working ( as in actually working hard, making a living, being succesfull) as opposed to the “shmoozing and sleeping” someone she married-no matter what they taught her in seminary or what her friends think!!!! So im not worried about her not respecting him.. I think Its up to him to prove to her he is respectable
I thought the most telling part of her question was that she said he gets upset at her when she does wake him up and try to get him to get out. If he was oversleeping by mistake he would be happy she was waking him. I agree that they missed the boat by not addressing the possibility that he doesn’t want to learn.
Didnt read the question, and obviously none of the answers. the way it is presented here leads me to believe that this couple is headed to divorce in 18 months or less.
1: It was said that the husband is a night owl? What is he doing so late at night? Working? playing dungeons and dragons online (or worse)?
2: Has anyone spoken to the husband about the importance of tefilla bitzibur and tefilla bizman (I suppose it is possible to “chap” a shachris at 11am if one lives in the right neighborhood)?
3: When he finally does get up and about, does he go learn? What DOES he do from 11am till he reaches the 2nd half of the day when he starts working. What are his work hours? Perhaps he works the 3pm to 11pm shift and really IS exhausted?
The possibilities are endless.
From her side. Has SHE ever spoken to her husband about the importance of davening and how it is important to her that her husband davens bizman and with a minyan? Is she afraid to? Has she ever spoken to her husband about his nigh time activities? Unless he is working the night shift and she knows why he is up so late, perhaps she should discuss this with her husband as well?
In defense of the answers provided, the responders unfortunately are handed a question and must answer and “dont be stupid and speak to your husband before you come crying to us” is not something the editors allow from the panel. They are stuck with trite drivel. They cant answer anything else because they really dont know whats going on.
apushatayid- regarding 1: uh oh. good point…
That was my first thought, but I figured there may just be “normall” guys that r night owls..
Now Im thinking- he gets upset at her when she wakes him at 10:30?
Hmmm sounds awfully familiar..
Im divorced btw..
Unless he works the night shift, what “late night activities” are available to the avg frum male that leaves him so exhausted that he can’t get up at 10am? Is he a musician with a gig every night and stays to play till after the mizva tantz? Is he in the beis medrash learning? Is he out eating sushi with other night owls till 2am? I think his late night activities, and her lack of knowledge of them, is what is really bothering her.
Did not read the article, but can only draw one conclusion: She should give him an ultimatum:
Get on a carear path, or go back to mommy.
What will really happen? She will probably just continue to allow him to keep the facade, because she no doubt has siblings to consider.
Sorry to sound heartless, but its the life she / her parents chose.
bpt- What do you mean siblings to consider?? life she chose??
Allow him to keep the facade? I hope not, but I think this girl is already doing good for herself that she is reaching out for advice..
Apushitayid..AAAAAAAAA! where wer u last year??
She should encourage him (note: not become his mashgiach) to go to sleep earlier, and learn more during the morning and daytime.
Reaching out for advice, but in the end, will most likely continue to hold up her end of the smoke screen, letting the public think her husband is shteiging away, instead of facing the fact that some boys are simply happier working (gasp!)
And since she may have single sisters / brothers who are still on the full time learner track, there can be no dissent from the her. Her parents will see to that.
Family pressure is no joke. Take it from someone who dared buck the trend; you make lots of waves, and all everyone wants you to do is “just stop making trouble for the rest of us”
That is, unless you’ve got the moxie to stand up to the crowd. Which is a tought battle. Will she take a stand? I sure hope so.
Nah- I dont think this is an issue with “learning.” He already works half the day. She and her fam know that. Hes obviously not a major learner. But during the first half- even if he is unhappy learning- why does he not want to get out of bed? Thatsnot so normall. Why doesnt he want to daven? He actually gets upset when she wakes him- I think thats something bigger then just not liking learning.. I went through this exact scenario.. I think she should do some digging..
bpt — Did you read the original article? This guy IS working half a day — very productively according to the question. He is not on the typical “kollel path”.
It did not say he gets upset when she wakes him up. It says he takes a while to get up and out of bed. He gets upset when she tries “discussing” the situation with him. I understood that to mean when she nags him about the fact that he doesn’t get up for davening! Most men would respond defensively when his wife complains about something like this. The responders seemed to understand it in a similar way, with many of them warning against being confrontational and nagging, and to try to get to the bottom of the issue by having a positive discussion with him.
The advice included
“discuss with him why he is disenchanted with the learning part of his day. . .”
“you need to get as much understanding as possible of the crucial question: why is this terrific guy having such a hard time? Why is it so difficult for him to get up?”
“you want to create a sense of caring, sharing , being a team.”
“reprove the wise part of the person, highlighting his many positive attributes”
There are numerous lines about being nonjudgmental and accepting, suggestions that there may be a deeper issue that can only be discussed if the wife is supportive and encouraging. There are also recommendations for him to consider changing his schedule, perhaps doing his learning at night with a chavrusah if this morning kollel doesn’t work for him.
It seems like none of the posters read the question or answers!
truth be told — You raise some interesting questions. With regard to your “social life” question, however, I think you may have misunderstood the article. It said he was self-employed — that is not the same as saying he worked from home.
bpt: if i recall correctly, the guy was working and productive in the afternoon and evenings – the plan (whose plan?) was that the morning was set aside for davening (obviously) and learning. seems like the guy would sleep through the morning and just wake up for afternoon job. wife had no complaints that he was working – just that he wasted the whole morning sleeping, and wasn’t davening on time or learning at all. (this is what i remember – could be wrong)
I think the responders should have asked her to determine exactly what this “night owl” is engaged in during these waking hours. it is quite possible that whatever activity(ies) he is engaged in, keeps him thoroughly exhausted. One respondent touched on this a little by suggesting that perhaps our night owl should schedule his learning for the night instead of the morning.
MIA (II): Thanks for the clarification. I read it very quickly.
Popa: I had read your opening post too quickly as well. I think your right, she should/has to respect her husband reguardless of what he is not doing in his personal relationship with Hashem.
Every man, no matter how great, has some shortcommings. Excuse the comparison, but even Moshe Rabbeinu’s wife could have a “tayne”. Hey, MR is not going into EY since he was punished…. But Moshe was a malach! Or greater than a malachaj It’s a wifes job to respect her husband, period!
(Not talking when he truly trult mistreats her)
“she should/has to respect her husband reguardless of what he is not doing in his personal relationship with Hashem.”
R we talking about airheads here?
how exactly is she supposed to achieve this respect for him despite what he is/is not doing?
Anyone can fake it, but I dont think its only her responsibility to respect this brand new husband of hers..
wheres the respect supposed to come from?
the way he replaces the lid on the toothpaste?
“It’s a wifes job to respect her husband, period!”
Interesting.
s2021: The respect needs to be there regardless.
Helloo.. regardless of his actions??
Even if he’s late for shachris. She is his wife.
s2021: I said not doing. There is a difference.
They r newly married! (I think. My info cums from CR)
She just met the guy four months ago!
Where is respect coming from??
s2021: Why did she agree to marry him, become his wife? It comes with the kinyan under the chupah and when he takes her into the yichud room.
Just an aside: Is her relationship with Hashem perfect?
Pardon the sarcasm. One must have utmost respect for the “best guy in the yeshiva”. So he has a few faults such as, doesn’t learn anything, skips davening and ignores his wife when she tries speaking with him, she must still respect him.
“the way he replaces the lid on the toothpaste?”
Hey I respect the way my husband puts the lid on the toothpaste…he always makes sure to clean the cap : )
and the same goes for the ketchup
Ctrl Alt Del: What is OSA?
m in Israel –
Yes, I did see the “working part time” note.
So? What does he want.. a medal? That’s what he SHOULD be doing, and he should be doing it full time. But, if this is his attitude towards avodas ha’boreh, chances are his “work in the afternoon” is somewhat lack-luster as well.
Learning after the wedding is not a right; its a privilege you need to earn. Daily. And by loafing on the couch, while Mrs. goes to work, all you show it your contempt for her, and lack of appreciation for the hard work she does.
I do agree that every wife needs to respect her husband and not focus on his flaws…
But I dont think its that simple in her situation..
I highly doubt she knew about his lack of functioning, and the truth about his relationship with Hashem before she agreed to marry him………
Everyone says love and respect cums with time, and it cums after the wedding.. when real life sets in, when u get to TRULY know the person..
Just like respect builds, so does dis-respect.
Its not exactly easy to close your eyes to the things u disrespect especially if they r young, and havent exactly built up a foundation..
actually, i don’t think they are newly married – again, if i recall correctly – she was worried about the impact of his sleeping the morning away would have on her children. sounded from article, if recall, that children were still relatively young.
A wife / husband has no business whatsoever being the other spouses referee in life. He / she is not the other one’s mashgiach. If one has good midos and is married with a normal healthy mindset based on simple, common love (yes, I said the dirty L word) there will naturally be respect, caring and unconditional acceptance of one another.
The very fact that this wife feels the need to ask what she should do about her husband who is sleeping late or missing daavening or learning clearly shows that she doesn’t understand what marriage is really supposed to be like. Marriage is not supposed to be a way to propel your own self image to greater heights of satisfaction based on the others accomplishments. If that’s all that its really about for you then you got it all wrong. Your being a self centered, selfish, egotist that demands those closest to you to perform in ways that fill your over-sized ego issues.
I had a great aunt who was frum her whole life. Her husband did not keep shabbos (in the early days of America, this was unfortunately very common) she continued her entire life living peacefully with him while she remained completely frum. Of course this had to be difficult for her to manage but from what I understand, despite the difficulties they had a happy marriage.
The point is marriage is not meant to be a list of expectations from one to the other if those expectations do not interfere with the responsibilities from one to the other. Not that providing a living for a wife is necessarily the greatest mitzvah in the world or not, but this would be an example of where the husband does have a direct commitment to the wife and he should keep it. On the other hand, he does not have a direct commitment to her that he go to shul on time or learn torah daily and as such, it’s simply none of her business to even keep track of it.
I hesitate to even suggest that a normal wife should be overly proud of a husband that gets up on time every day as that would suggest otherwise there’s a lack of respect. Marriage is not about pride.
s2021: I hear your point.
You have to understand your husband. Some men can’t get up for a 7:00 minyan and need to sleep in .it’s not the wife to say what he has to do. You could encourage him to get up and even try to wake him. You just need to realize what he needs that what’s ienportant . The learning maybe he could get a chavrusa and learn at night for an hr in shul.
s2021: Everyone says love and respect cums with time, and it cums after the wedding.. when real life sets in, when u get to TRULY know the person..
Just like respect builds, so does dis-respect.
Its not exactly easy to close your eyes to the things u disrespect especially if they r young, and havent exactly built up a foundation..
All that means is that she has her work cut out for herself. She should focus on that, rather than her expectations of kavod she’d like to receive through her husband.
2morecents: I agree with a lot of what you said, but I think you may have been a little too harsh.
Your being a self centered, selfish, egotist that demands those closest to you to perform in ways that fill your over-sized ego issues.
A woman should care about her husbands spirituality. However, it should be out of love, selflessness, and concern, for him.
I think they usually get to share in Gan Eiden. She can want that. She should though, make herself aware of the halochos.
eclipse
“I think the Mishpacha prints way too many oversimplified (and therefore irresponsible) articles.”
You are so right about this! I thought about it so many times as I read advice columns in various magazines.
I sometimes cringe at the problems people write about, AND THE RIDICULOUS ATTEMPTS OF THE RESPONDERS TO SOLVE IT IN A COUPLE OF PARAGRAPHS!!
The worst part is when someone writes in about their spouse, and I wonder: Doesn’t anyone remember that there’s another person involved here? Another side to the story? Apparently not.
If I were a Rabbi/Rebbetzin/Psychologist/Therapist/(which thank God I’m not!) and a magazine asked me to respond in their advice column, I’d refuse. I simply don’t believe that one can honestly get a handle on an anonymous person’s situation without talking to all parties involved.
And I hope to God that nobody applies the advice they read in there, in their own relationships.
2morecents,
I both agree and disagree with what you are saying.
I vehemently disagree if the wife is giving up rights in her ketubah (like support) for her learning husband who isn’t learning.
I think this guy is my chavrusa. (at least when he shows up)
not kidding
On a more serious note: Just because he wakes up late doesn’t mean he hates learning. There are many people who thoroughly enjoy learning, but they are irresponsible and unorganized.
Popa: Another thing, why are you assuming they will get (pun unintended) divorced. Thats a pretty pessimistic approach. And I am being realistic, when I say that they very likely will have a beautiful lasting marriage. The main thing is they need to have an honest personal conversation and figure out the best solution.
“If one has good midos and is married with a normal healthy mindset based on simple, common love (yes, I said the dirty L word) there will naturally be respect, caring and unconditional acceptance of one another.”
I think the way it works is the other way around- when there is respect, caring, (ecceptance too I guess) then real love can grow, or in a young couples case- come..
“Marriage is not supposed to be a way to propel your own self image to greater heights of satisfaction based on the others accomplishments.”
Agree, but I dont think thats the issue. The dude is not waking up!! Thats a problem, and it effects the entire home. U cant just turn a blind eye and say- Wer all our own ppl, it shouldnt bother me.. It definately should bother u if someone u care about is going through a rough time with something!!
“A wife / husband has no business whatsoever being the other spouses referee in life. He / she is not the other one’s mashgiach.”
Agreed. But asking for advice on something that is clearly an issue for BOTH, or occasionally waking him up at 10:30 isnt exactly that much.
Marriage is a partnership. Yes, one leaning on the other too much is wrong, and each person needs to be responsible for himself as a whole. But dont make it like this shouldnt be an issue, and it shouldnt bother her in the slightest. That would be very self centerd.
mytake…well-said.
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