January 30, 2020 11:03 am at 11:03 am #1827310
Agudath Israel of America, in its public letter they published yesterday January 28th in response to President Trump’s Deal of the Century Israel-Palestine peace proposal, has announced for the first time their support for Palestinian statehood.January 30, 2020 11:42 am at 11:42 am #1827407GadolhadorahParticipant
“..announced for the first time their support for Palestinian statehood”
As Reb Yosef knows better than anyone, the term “statehood” is about as nebulous a geopolitical term as one can imagine in relation to the issue of sovereignty, independent governance and military authority, Israeli veto rights. and international recognition. It allows Trump/Bibi to avoid having to say that the U.S. and EY reneged on prior commitments to a “two state” solution, which is the official position of just about every country in the world. The level of detail in the Trump “plan” really allows anyone to read into it whatever they want.
Agudah values its access to this administration and will not say anything negative about anything Trump-related. In fact, there is a rumor that Rav Perlow, shlita, will informally become known as the “Mar-a-Lago Rebbe” in addition to the Novominsker Rebbe.January 30, 2020 12:33 pm at 12:33 pm #18274391Participant
I am against any deal that calls for Palestinian StatehoodJanuary 30, 2020 1:21 pm at 1:21 pm #1827464kollelmanParticipant
Acceptance of the proposed statehood is the long-con. This will demonstrate that the other side is utterly uninterested in true peace and earning recognition through good behavior. Instead they truly want to terrorize Israel and remove all Jews from the land. The protesters openly admit it, as they chant in campuses and rallies across the world “From the river, to the sea; Palestine will be free”.January 30, 2020 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #1827506MilhouseParticipant
Not true. The Agudah does not support “Palestinian” statehood, and nothing in its statement implies that it does. The statement merely welcomes Trump’s plan despite this one flaw in it, which we hope will not end up meaning anything because the Arabs will reject it, or even if they accept it they will break it before this “statehood” is implemented, since it is to come at the end of a long process.January 30, 2020 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #1827532knafaymParticipant
The real question here isn’t do you or don’t you support another Arab state. Since they will never agree or commit to the terms of the deal. Rather are we willing to put our names a paper that is declaring such a right.January 30, 2020 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #1827574chashParticipant
Agudah does, as per the opinion of all the Torah world gedolim since the Chazon Ish, support that which will make life better for the Jewish people.
That does not mean that it is better to have a Palestinian state. Rather that it is better to have a comprehensive, world accepted, plan.
One thing that the Gedolim have never supported, was Zionism. And so, we dont care if there is a Palestinian state or not, even if it is all based on lies or whatever you want to say. The point is to support that which will give Yidden the opportunity to thrive. At this junction, the most pragmatic approach is to support the deal that our president has presented.
those who espouse the idea that “israel is ours and we should not give up an inch” are, firstly, fools, and secondly, not adhering to the dictates of the Torah on this matter.January 30, 2020 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #1827552IvduEsHashemBsimchaParticipant
GadolaHadorah: I’m not saying I agree or disagree with the substantive points you raise, but why do you have to constantly belittle people, be they anonymous online posters or actual people? It isn’t nice and doesn’t make your arguments any more compelling.January 31, 2020 12:16 am at 12:16 am #1827608GadolhadorahParticipant
Actually, the references to the Agudah and the Rav’s closeness to the Trump administration can be viewed as a net positive for their constituents In case you didn’t notice, AG Barr invited Agudah to his meeting earlier this week in BP on antisemitism while a number of elected frum public officials wee not. Agudah has also been effective in obtaining funds for security of their mosdos. The reference to Mar-a-Lago was certainly not meant to be disrespectful to the Rav, shlitah. Trump has shown himself loyal to religious leaders who are supportive of his policies. There are likewise a number of complimentary names accorded to Rav Shem Tov, the Chabad shaliach in D.C. who has become incredibly close to the Trump administration, and Kushner in particular.January 31, 2020 12:18 am at 12:18 am #18276141Participant
Chash, we aren’t in the 1970s. Where in the Torah does it say that we should give land to terrorists?January 31, 2020 12:19 am at 12:19 am #1827612
Not true. The Agudah does not support “Palestinian” statehood, and nothing in its statement implies that it does.
Milhouse: You’re clearly mistaken. Have you even read the actual Agudah letter? In the relevant portion the Agudah (in the second paragraph) states approvingly, verbatim, “The framework offers hope for the fulfillment of their dreams of statehood, sovereignty and economic enrichment.” (The “their” are a reference to the “Palestinians”, as specially referenced by that name earlier in the same Agudah statement.)
This is NOT, as you characterized it, a “statement merely welcomes Trump’s plan despite this one flaw in it.” The Agudah in its own words specifically and approvingly noted that it offers a sovereign State of Palestine. It does not in any way infer or imply it as being a flaw.
This is a 180 degree turnaround from many decades of strong and unambiguous opposition to any notion of Palestinian statehood.January 31, 2020 12:19 am at 12:19 am #1827597
This is the third time in a week that you have lied and misrepresented the words of others to satisfy your own twisted worldview.
The statement actually said that “Agudath Israel of America is deeply appreciative of the Trump Administration’s tireless efforts to bring peace and prosperity to both Israelis and Palestinians”, that “There can be no peace without the recognition of Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish State.” and that “For Palestinians who are prepared to take these steps to sincere peace, the framework offers hope for the fulfillment of their dreams of statehood, sovereignty and economic enrichment”.
Agudath Israel’s statement only said that the plan “offers hope” for Palestinians and only explicitly supports “Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish State”. That ought to drive the fakers who pretend to understand Vayoel Moshe, such as yourself, completely insane!January 31, 2020 8:44 am at 8:44 am #1827644
Phil, nothing you said negates the facts I clearly presented directly quoting Agudas Yisroel of America specifically mentioning Palestinian statehood.
EditedJanuary 31, 2020 10:57 am at 10:57 am #1827694som1Participant
Palestinians were offered a two state solution five times!!!January 31, 2020 1:12 pm at 1:12 pm #1827714
The Rebbe Rashab and R’ Chaim Brisker’s concerns are vindicated again and again. The aforementioned did not join the Agudah because of concerns of complicity with tyizonus and because of the platform that anyone who is a part of the Agudah will have to abide by the majority decision of the Moetzes. Here we see clearly that that Agudah is complicit in Tziyonus, Minus, and plans which transgress the Torah HaKedosha and endanger the lives of Yidden. Uch un veyFebruary 2, 2020 12:28 am at 12:28 am #1827929YW Moderator-29 👨💻Moderator
A copy of the email from Agudah to Phil was forwarded to us. It states clearly that their public letter does not state support for a two state solution.February 2, 2020 12:53 am at 12:53 am #1827927
In response to this silly thread by the YWN troll in residence, I emailed R. Chaim Dovid Zwiebel, Executive Vice President, Agudath Israel of America and received the following response:
“We have never taken a position on a two state solution. Nothing we said in our statement last week reacting to President Trump’s peace proposal was intended to convey such an endorsement.”
editedFebruary 2, 2020 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #1828167
The Agudah’s emailed response can only be characterized as a partial retraction to their January 28 statement which I quoted in my second post on this thread. The January statement was laudatory and approving of the President’s offer for a sovereign State of Palestine, with the Agudah specifically mentioning a sovereign state in a positive light.
I would also dispute the notion that they’ve “never taken a position on a two state solution.” Without any ambiguity, in the 90s and 2000s they were outright opposed to Palestinian statehood. Perhaps, as they now wrote, nothing they said in their statement last week reacting to President Trump’s peace proposal was intended to convey such an endorsement, but unintentionally they’ve shown that their position has shifted over the decades — slowly but ever so surely, even if not so perceptibly.February 2, 2020 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #1828190
The Aguda can claim whatever they like but their public statement clearly endorses the two state solution and there is no rational person who would read it any other way.February 2, 2020 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #1828243
I read the letter. It does not say that it agrees with a two state solution. It says that the proposal is a springboard for further negotiations.February 2, 2020 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #1828234
“The Aguda can claim whatever they like but their public statement clearly endorses the two state solution and there is no rational person who would read it any other way”
You are welcome to your version of things but no need to be rude. I felt exactly that way (but without the insult) when i saw this thread, wondering how someone could think the way you do. And i am not alone
.February 2, 2020 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #1828248
You spun an entire twisted thread based upon your silly parsing of the Agudah’s statement and they explicitly denied your premise. Yet, you continue to insist that you’re right because you can’t deal with any facts that contradict your myopic worldview.
This instance, plus you recent posts on the Zionist elections and the JPost article regarding IDF exemptions show that sadly, you have a serious allergy to the truth.February 3, 2020 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #1828524
As you see above, I’m not the only one reading it as such. It is a basic reading of the English as written by the Agudah. Even their emailed clarification clearly says that they’re not against a two-state solution. But even that is a departure from their stated position less than 20 years ago when they were unequivocally opposed to a sovereign Palestinian State.February 3, 2020 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #1828563
“But even that is a departure from their stated position less than 20 years ago when they were unequivocally opposed to a sovereign Palestinian State.”
So when R. Zwiebel clearly states:
“We have never taken a position on a two state solution”
he’s lying and you’re not, right?February 5, 2020 1:28 am at 1:28 am #1829011
“So when R. Zwiebel clearly states:
“We have never taken a position on a two state solution”
he’s lying and you’re not, right?”
If I spit on you, and clearly state I didn’t, would it make you a liar for saying I did? The Agudah publically made a statement which in the english language means they support the political process and premise of the two state solution. The fact they won’t at least own up to it is just more sad Zionist propaganda.February 5, 2020 1:43 am at 1:43 am #1829013
If I cough near you and you think I spit at you but I didn’t and you insist I did what would that make you?February 5, 2020 7:38 am at 7:38 am #1829031February 5, 2020 8:03 am at 8:03 am #1829043
Reb Eliezer: The Agudah lauded the American offer for a sovereign Palestinian state as a positive.February 5, 2020 8:41 am at 8:41 am #1829056
“If I cough near you and you think I spit at you but I didn’t and you insist I did what would that make you?”
It would make me mistaken. However, in this case I am not mistaken.February 5, 2020 9:26 am at 9:26 am #1829063
Joseph, I see in the letter that the proposal is a springboard for future negotiations.February 5, 2020 10:34 am at 10:34 am #1829098
“If I spit on you, and clearly state I didn’t, would it make you a liar for saying I did?”
By accusing him of lying, you spit on R. Zwiebel and the Moetzes that he represents, just to validate your own twisted worldview.
editedFebruary 5, 2020 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #1829122
“By accusing him of lying, you spit on R. Zwiebel and the Moetzes that he represents, just to validate your own twisted worldview.”
Someone did something publicly, they were called out for it, they then proceeded to deny it, and you think it is me and Joseph who are twisted?
Further, what is twisted about about believing in the world view propagated by our holy forebears and rabbonim ?February 5, 2020 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #1829149
The Moetzes don’t agree with your supposed “world view propagated by our holy forebears and rabbonim” so you twisted their statement and then accused them of lying.
editedFebruary 7, 2020 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #1829914
I would just like to point out that I don’t necessarily think that the Agudah supporting a Palestinian State is inherently a negative position. 5ish, I think, would disagree with me on this point. But IF the creation of a Palestinian State as part of a peace treaty would have the net effect of saving more Jewish lives, it would be a positive.
I should also point out that Phil is dead wrong about the Moetzes. This statement came from the Agudah’s political office led by laymen. And I can confirm from first-hand information, something that’s well known to anyone familiar with the Agudah, that the press releases and statements made by the Agudah’s lay office are NOT vetted or approved by the Moetzes. Including this January press release.
In any event, the primary point here is the Agudah’s language praised the Trump peace plan, including specifically mentioning in a positive manner the offer for Palestinian statehood.February 10, 2020 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #1830577
“I would just like to point out that I don’t necessarily think that the Agudah supporting a Palestinian State is inherently a negative position”
After calling other Jews liars, how about some honesty from you? The only peace plan that you and the rest of NK back is the PA’s one state solution, “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”.
On the other hand, the Agudah’s statement only explicitly supports “Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish State”, which you and your keffiyah scarf-wearing NK buddies will never support.February 10, 2020 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #1830608
Get over it, Phil. Anyone fluent in English can read the Agudah’s own statement and see with their own eyes that the Agudah was praising the American offer for a Palestinian state.February 10, 2020 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #1830615
Or you can read it carefully and see that they don’tFebruary 10, 2020 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #1830635
They unquestionably do. I’m not the only one even just here that noticed that. It’s sticks out as blatantly obvious. There’s no other reasonable way to read it as anything other than praising the American plan and specifically mentioning the offer for a Palestinian state in a positive light.February 10, 2020 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #1830666
You can’t say it’s unquestionably if some question it. And if you are somehow saying that your not being alone is a raaya then so what, I am not either. You sound like the democrats talking about undisputable proof that the Republicans keep disputing. Why can’t you learn to have an opinion that differs from other people’s without needing to make them wrong? I can’t fathom how you cannot see what is so obvious to so many, but I have the decency to allow you your opinion. try it.
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