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“”Most of the issues in the MO community are the cause of ignorance, not malignant violations of Halacha; think of it as a Tinok SheNishba situation of sorts (Chas VeShalom, I am NOT calling the MO community Tinokos SheNishbeu). “”
You can’t have your cake and eat it too – are they woefully uneducated people (uneducated and miseducated by the MO system) and therefore blameless, or do they know better, having been properly educated by the MO system only to choose the wrong communal lifestyle?
RebDovidFunDerHeights: AviraDeArah presented you with 25 taainas, immediately following your OP, as you specifically requested in your OP. You specifically stated that you “seek to answer–from the inside–anyone with Taanos on the YU/MO community”.
When can we expect your point-by-point answers in response, as you promised, to each of AviraDeArah’s taainas?
Dbs – it’s great that you’re learning! Keep it up!
camp morasha is a co-ed camp; interactions between young people in a camp can undermine months of growth in yiddishkeit. I hope your part of the camp is totally separate.
Camp Agudah is a boy’s camp with two parts; regular camp and masmidim. Masmidim learn 3x a day, and the rest of the camp does not. Some boys need a bigger break from the intense work they put in the rest of the year; bitulo zuhi kiyumo.
As for rabbi willig’s answer to teaching girls gemara…. pirkei avos is mussar. It is like the agadetas that women have learned in tzena urena for hundreds of years.
Teaching it is not the same as teaching gemara and halacha, and I’m surprised that rabbi willig said this; it’s not “situational”, it’s a simple distinction. The chofetz chaim allowed teaching tanach and halacha; tanach is a b”dieved but allowed, and halacha is necessary.
@AviraDeArah Camp Morasha has a weird relationship with Camp Morasha Kollel. They are officially part of the same organization, but the kollel is run completely separate. The camp is pretty much the embodiment of everything previous comments have taken issue with regarding Modern Orthodoxy. The Kollel is run by YU Rosh Yeshivos and generally only accepts serious bachurim with a very serious mindset about Yiddishkeit.
I’m not sure if the connection between the two can be construed as the Rebbeim from the Kollel endorsing the way the camp is run and the hashkofos they put out.
My intention was never to insult any particular person – if you read my losts6, I have a very positive opinion of my high school english principal. I have a lot of good things to say about jews who may not be totally observant; that is not a contradiction to any of the taanos and issues of MO as an entity that I raised.
שקר שנאתי ואתעבה, תורתך אהבתי
I don’t think this only applies to gedolei hador – each and every one of us is capable of despising what Hashem hates and loving what He loves. We are not supposed to hide our heads in the sand while MO ideology degenerates and influences the Torah world. Neither are we to pretend that there are other, valid opinions about any of the issues I raised. It’s not hateful to say, for instance, that conservative judaism is not authentic. It would be hurtful to our cause to make a conservative Jewish person feel bad or offend them; but knowing right from wrong, emes from sheker, is a source of eternal perfection – it is, in rav avigdor miller’s lingo “true knowledge”, a palpable understanding of emes that accompanies a person into olam haba.
If you’ll notice, I omitted many differences between MO and the Yeshiva world. I omitted things that are not black and white, assur and mutar, including going to college, how one dresses, secular names, and other things that are common in MO. I was careful to mention only the things that relate to akiras hados, the uprooting of Torah and abrogation of halacha.
I admit I was wrong, common saychel and others were right. This is a very clever troll thread that accomplished exactly what it intended. MO-bashing is endemic to this forum, but this technique brought it to a new level. Good work.
I must protest one thing. It is one thing to bash MO, as I said this is the forum for it. But out of nowhere and without provocation to tear apart Rav Hershel Schachter is unforgivable. I once gave him a ride and asked him how he handles the abuse he gets from some in the yeshivishe oilam. He said “It’s like water, just runs off my back.” So he would not protest his demonization here, he’s way above it and way way above all you little people, but as a little person myself, אני מוחה. Shame on you.
“Among the newly announced policies, the university plans to update its “diversity, inclusion and sensitivity training” to focus on “diverse student groups, including sexual orientation and gender identity.” Administrators will receive initial training in the coming semester, and one for faculty, staff and students will be developed. The Counseling Center will also ensure that its staff includes a clinician with “specific LGBTQ+ experience.” Additionally, a “warm line” will be created in the coming semester for YU students to discuss or report concerns about “non-inclusive” harassment or bullying.”
Official YU statements quoted by its student newspaper. Does this sound like a yeshiva, or a liberal leftist college?
Rebdovid,
Since you replied I’ll answer one of your defenses
“ Most of the issues in the MO community are the cause of ignorance, not malignant violations of Halacha; think of it as a Tinok SheNishba situation of sorts (Chas VeShalom, I am NOT calling the MO community Tinokos SheNishbeu).”
So it’s the job of the rabbanim to teach them and call them out if something is wrong
Are they scared they’ll lose their job?
Coffee- I assume it’s no different than the lack of movement to stop the skirts from getting shorter.,.
RebDovid- on the chance you are not a troll stirring machlokes and are just young and idealistic, please don’t judge a group by it’s loudest members.
At age 14, Rabbi Miller went to New York City to attend Yeshivas Rabbenu Yitzchok Elchonon, at the time the only American high school offering high-level Jewish learning. After this, he enrolled in Yeshiva College. He graduated from both Yeshiva University (YU) and Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary (RIETS), attaining a B.A. and rabbinical ordination, respectively.
rational, the LGTB “community” deserves to be bashed and so do those who encourage and support this perverted behavior, including unfortunately, the MO communities which generally supports these abominations. I have had discussions with MOs on a different forum and they defended this perverted behavior as “something they were born with” and they said that we need to accept them as they are, which is totally against halacha.
As for other issues with the MO community that others pointed out, these are about gross violations of basic halacha in which criticism of MOs is justified.
As for MOs being bashed, it is mostly on another Jewish news site and on other forums, however oftentimes here on YWN as well, where it is most often Chareidim who are being bashed all the time and with such such great sinah that when reading these virulent comments by MOs, OTDs, and half OTDs, I sometimes feel I’m reading the Sturhmer.
Syag, and what’s the teretz why there’s a lack of movement to stop the skirts from getting shorter?
(I would say that in real Torah communities there very much is a strong, albeit not loud with PR, movement to insure the skirts don’t get shorter. And you can certainly see differences in skirt lengths between different communities.)
Regarding girls learning Gemara – one thing they don’t tell you in the Beis Yaakov system is that Sarah Schenirer learned Gemara every day, she had a daily seder for it.
coffee addict: I don’t think the Rabbonim are scared they’ll lose their job – it’s more about a proper pace. Push something too hard all at once and it will break. You need to go slowly, one step at a time, so people don’t feel overwhelmed.
DaMoshe, you didn’t respond to several points addressed to you.
“The [YU] Counseling Center will also ensure that its staff includes a clinician with specific LGBTQ+ experience….”
The REITS rabbonim agree that LGBTQ is clearly asur m’dorisah
its the “+” that is the subject of considerable debate
Avirah –
” including rav avigdor miller’s seforim, the old frumteens website, ”thank you for helping me understand why you sound so much like Joseph. I know I am a random anonymous voice but I would tell you that you seem able to explain points and processes well, with enough information included to help others understand, but if you could somehow find a kinder or softer presentation you may be able to have more influence. For instance, you point out how you may have been harsh but look at all the things you didn’t say. To that I wanted to respond – when someone is racing toward me with a truck, I don’t stop to notice that he did not run over my lawn on the way.
Here is my response to each line item:
1. There are halachos which govern how genders may interact and how they can’t. Do the schools require situations of yichud? Do they require physical contact? No, they don’t. In many of the schools, classes actually are separated above a certain ago, and certainly for specific subjects they are separate.
Once again, as I mentioned earlier, the Yeshivish world has taken on many chumros, which are not halachah.
Regarding NCSY, I already addressed that in a prior post.2. MO does not demonize the Yeshivish world. We may disagree with it, but that is not the same as demonizing it. As for R’ Lamm zt”l’s quote, I agree, he used a term he likely shouldn’t have. But look at it like this: a caveman is shut off from the world. When he eventually leaves the cave, he is exposed to society, with which he is not familiar. He can be overwhelmed with it all. So too people who grow up in the yeshiva world and have things kept hidden from them, such as Internet access, interacting innocently with the opposite gender, and other things. MO teaches people how to deal with these things properly. When yeshivish people are exposed to it (and they are at some point), many of them don’t know how to deal with it, and they are overwhelmed.
3. No MO person I know equates secular studies with Torah study. The idea of knowledge for the sake of knowledge is because since Hashem created the world, and all knowledge has a place in the world, by gaining as much as we can, it will help us to better understand and appreciate Hashem. It will also help us understand learning Torah. For example, a good understanding of trigonometry is extremely beneficial when learning Maseches Sukkah.
4. Tznius is an area where the yeshivish world (influenced mostly by Chassidim) took on many unnecessary chumros. Learn the basic halachos before accusing others of looking for leniencies. As for techeles, if there’s an easy mitzvah to possibly fulfill, why not do it? Why try to relate techeles to tznius, when they have nothing to do with each other?
5. I’m not even sure why you believe either one of these. How does MO incubate feminism, and why would you think MO invented meta-halacha?
6. Can you please provide some examples of how self-determinism was made part of Judaism, and what the issue with it is?
As for leisure – it’s a very important part. R’ Pam zt”l was known to tell people that if you don’t allow children time to play when they’re young, they will play when they’re older. Having downtime is important for your mental health at any age, and helps you to function properly when you are not relaxing.7. You are just incorrect on this, and I don’t know why you’d think otherwise.
8. Again, where do you get these ideas from? Spiritual achievements secularized? Denying Hashem’s sole control over the world? Just because Hashem controls the world does not mean that people are incapable of doing harm or repairing the world. Hashem set up a derech hatevah, and our actions do affect the world around us.
9. In this area, you are partially correct. There are some MO who do affirm these areas, although many oppose them as well.
As for the death penalty, it is NOT prescribed in the Noahide Laws. The law is for a fair system of laws to be set up. Penalties are up to the society setting up the system. If a non-Jew violates one of the Noahide Laws at a time when there is a Sanhedrin, then yes, the Sanhedrin can impose the death penalty.10. This is something that is unique to each individual, so you’ll have to provide some examples. You must also differentiate between admiring specific actions and admiring the person. I will also note that this is not limited to MO, but is also done by the yeshivish world and chassidish world.
11. Times change, and the evils given in the Torah can take different forms. Calling them out for what they are today is not an issue.12. Israel is a separate debate. You can be dedicated to the country without liking the government.
13. When the derech is one you are choosing, then you’re correct, they won’t be guiding people to it. They do, however, guide their followers to a derech which is perfectly legitimate, even if you disagree.
14. Disagree with all of these.
15. Who are you to judge who is sincere and who isn’t?
16. Disagree, I have never heard this said by anyone.
17. Where did you get this idea from?
18. The Torah is not reexamined. Sources are found that are legitimate sources from known Rishonim and Acharonim.
19. If you are sick, you go see a doctor. If you have a halachick question, you ask a Rabbi. What is the problem there? My own Rosh Yeshiva (a well known Chareidi RY) once told me how “some people won’t blow their nose without asking their Rebbe first if it’s ok.” He was bemoaning the fact that many Rabbonim give advice in areas they’re not qualified to, and people should seek out experts in the area instead of asking their Rebbe.RebDovid, DBS, Mesivta bachur and puttinginmy2cents –
Please don’t judge the coffee room participants as a single group. Especially by 3 posters. It is no different than what you ask of them.
Also, I just want to say I appreciate your quest for achdus, and many of us join you. It is a rough road because not everyone is nice, and it is very hard to oppose a movement without it being taken personally (I’m talking from any side). Legitimate claims against modern orthodoxy are automatically construed as personal attacks. And when someone to the “right” tells you that you are doing something not in accordance with halacha, the most natural response is to point out all the wrong in their communities as well. Is there a solution? Sure. But not in a chat room. I don’t think you could even support your favorite ice cream flavor online without people calling you names. It needs to be done in person, and with kindness, and with an ability to hear without feeling attacked. (again, I’m talking all sides)I did learn something valuable from this thread today. I grew up in a modern orthodox system but there really was no modern orthodox system. It was orthodoxy made modern. I have a nephew who spent summers at Kollel in Morasha. He is a serious learner and perhaps proudly Modern Orthodox (I honestly never asked) but his life does not resemble the life I grew up in. There is a tremendous chashivus to learning, daas torah, tzniyus, tfila bitzibur, seperation of boys and girls in casual settings etc. Do they do things that make me scratch my head? Sometimes. And in that there is room for discussion. They are closely connected to YU but do not give ANY support or empathy to the LGBTQ community.
So what is it that I learned? That Modern Orthodoxy is not one single derech. It has questionable hashkofos, but not everyone seems to have “taken them on”. There is a need to differentiate between Modern Orthodoxy and modern versions of orthodoxy. I will not whitewash things that are wrong with Modern Orthodoxy, but the “label” seems to be too broad for anyone to understand who they are yelling at or why there is so much hatred. We need to drop the lumping and state our specific issues, and we also need to accept that there people who are angry because they are ferociously defending the distortion and watering down of halacha. If it aint you doing it, then remove yourself from the equation. But understand the need to fight this as we fall further and further away from the way things should be.
Too long, really sorry about that. But I dread another chat room casualty….
Gadolhadorah: It’s extremely important to have a counselor with experience in LGBTQ+ on staff. After all, if someone is gay and wants to remain frum, they have an extremely difficult road ahead. We need to do better in helping these people instead of shunning them.
“That’s not the point. What I meant was that you cannot blame people for that which they don’t know, hence that even if they are mistaken, it does give anyone the right to disown them, especially an entire community.“
But it is the point
“coffee addict: I don’t think the Rabbonim are scared they’ll lose their job – it’s more about a proper pace. Push something too hard all at once and it will break. You need to go slowly, one step at a time, so people don’t feel overwhelmed.“
I’ll address you too damoshe,
I’m not saying to push I’m saying to teach what’s right and wrong (and especially lead by example isn’t pushing)
It brings to mind a vort I thought of for פרשת שופטים
In Parshas Shoftim we talk about someone that killed someone else on purpose but runs away to an עיר מקלט the Torah says you should kill the murderer (Rashi says don’t say one person died why should we kill another person)
But the Gemara says if a בית דין killed one person in 70 years it’s considered “a בית דין של רוצחים” why? If the Torah says they should kill him why are they murderers?
The answer I was thinking of is that בית דין’s job isn’t just to judge cases but also to teach people not to do עבירות, and if a person does an עבירה they failed in their job
The same holds true over here, a rabbi’s job isn’t just to give sermons and perform weddings but to teach their congregation what’s right and what’s wrong
This is all a slippery slope. When we start judging someone else’s actions we should also be judging our own.
I consider myself frum/yeshivish. But some would call me MO and others would call me Ultra Orthodox. It is a matter of perspective. At the end of the day we all need to follow a Rav and stick to that direction.In my humble opinion, a lot of what I personally consider to be MO has a lower starting point then orthodox people do (I really hate labels). What I mean is, that in some situations the expectations are set lower so that being Jewish is appealing as compared to the the non Jewish world. This is because we are “enlightened” as a society. We need to get with the “times”.
And the opposite is true too. There are chumrahs invented everyday. If you want to be stricter on yourself that’s fine. But don’t force that on anyone else.
What I believe is most important, and it has already been said, is Achdus and everyone stop criticizing fellow Jews.
“14. See above, 1 and 4. Is the lack of Tznius dress in the MO world a problem? Yes. But, As stated above in no. 1, that is not anyone’s fault. People are not interested in being told that what they’re doing is wrong across the board, not just in the MO world.“
I like most of your points but this I take issue with
Lace top sheitels (should be a whole new thread IMO) has started to be shown to be אסור and thankfully I have seen people on community groups start to sell them (I’m assuming because they realize they can’t wear it anymore
To AviraDeArah: You stated, “Re, rav avigdor miller…to claim he has any relation to YU when he repeatedly bashed MO (he was one of my early influences…im insulted for his kovod) is ludicrous. His YI became a shul of mevakshei Hashem. He raised the mechitzah at night; many left but he didn’t care. He denounced an announcement that a kiddush was being made at a conservative temple, and said “we will not mention conservative temples in this shul”, many more left… He didn’t care. He also changed the name eventually to Bais yisroel of rugby when he moved.”
He didn’t change the name of the Young Israel of Rugby. He didn’t ‘own’ it. It belonged to the National Council of Young Israel. When he moved to Flatbush, he opened his own shul/Bais Medrash and named it ‘Bais Yisroel of Rugby’.
Several years ago I heard a story about a rov from New York, that would not daven in a Young Israel. Yet when one of his neighbors met him in California (don’t know where in California) davening in a Young Israel, the neighbor asked him why he was davening here in a Young Israel but won’t in New York? The rov answered that out of New York I know that a Young Israel will have a ‘kosher minyan’. In New York, I have many shuls that have a ‘kosher’ minyan, not to say that the Young Israels in New York don’t have ‘kosher’ minyanim.
@chiamshulem, “some drive to shul on shabbos” yup and I am sure some eat shellfish and bacon and eggs too, those are not torah observant Jew by anyones standards.
edited
I have davened in the past in MO shuls from Halifax NS to Palo Alto, from the UK to Venice with no issue, so long as the have a Mechitza according to Reb Moshe its not an issue, I happen to be a Chasidsher Yingerman related to most of the Rebbisher families.
My main beef with MO places recently is that they took dranconian steps in Covid, and now to their chagrin they found out they lost between 1/3 and 1/2 of the members
Damoshe – women learning gemara individually is sanctioned by the prisha, but only exceptional women, as they are not motzi divrei torah ledivrei havai. Sara schnirer was as exceptional as one can be; that has no bearing on the uncontested halacha prohibiting the teaching of gemara to women.
I’ll repond to rebdovid first, as he started the thread.
I too, was in a boy’s only school, and the rebbeim as well tried to teach us a little bit – guess how many listened and didn’t make fun of how “extreme” the rabbis are? Almost none; actually, just one – me, even though at first I was counted in that number as well. The MO home and the TV culture (nowadays it’s the smartphone and social media) taught us how to think and behave. What was normal on TV was normal to us.
Every one of the boys in that school was in contact with girls; no exceptions. Every one of them watched R rated movies and worse, sometimes behind their parents’ back…when you open the door to the yatzer hora, he kicks it down. In a co-ed school, imagine telling teenage boys not to look at the girls. You’re putting the michshol right in front of them and saying the equivalent of “don’t think about a pink elephant”, but magnifying it by a ten fold with raging hormones and daily availability.
Just how many “more religious” children were damaged by their daily exposure to members of the opposite gender to justify a kiruv project? I’m not a chabad chossid, far from it, but if you want to see school-kiruv in action, look at their mahalach – they put a few non-frum students in with a (gender separate) group of frum kids, the frei get shlepped along with the majority. The ratio is about 1:10 I believe. Either way, we don’t sacrifice our own children for kiruv.
Would you give your children experimental anti-cancet drugs that they don’t need, if there were a chance of them being fatal, in order to help other kids who need the drug?
Aside from what everyone knows goes on in hallways and stairwells, whatever rules a school makes against intergender relationships, do you really expect pubescent students to simply not follow their hormones when exposed daily to available and willing stimuli? It’s preposterous. The reason why we keep away from contact with members of the opposite gender (henceforth MOTOG) is because more exposure equals more of a yatzer hora. What we see and hear everyday influences us.
Most MO schools separate genders for limudei kodesh, but there is still quite a lot of mixing elsewhere, as well as in extra curricular activities. Is it a surprise then, when relationships or casual aveiros develop?
Many MO believe in this as a shitah, that it’s better to be exposed and remove the mystery, and that even sinning is natural and unavoidable anyway. They liken it to drinking alcohol. They say, “are you that weak that you can’t even be around women and not have hirhurim?” That is completely against how chazal view the yatzer hora – “yisrachek odom es atzmo meod meod meod (3 meods!) Min hanashim”…be very,. Very, very distant from women. Does that mean we can’t work with women? No, because poskim say that you could, since you’re too busy working to have hirhurim.
Teenage boys are too busy being teenage boys NOT to sin if they are with girls.
The difference lf course, is that alcohol is not assur and social interaction with women is. That’s not a “chumra”. Shulchan aruch, from gemara, is clear that even asking “how are you” is assur gamur. I asked rav belsky once if maybe “how are you” nowadays has no intention of “kiruv daas” and is no different than the permitted “good morning”, he answered that there is still a difference and that one should not say “how are you”. Granted that may not be the accepted standard even in the Yeshiva world, as many rebbetzins have addressed me so, but to socialize and have full kiruv hadaas is definitely assur.
It seems that you’re “right wing” MO and that you’re consistently quoting rabbi willig, who is on the far right of the MO world. Indeed the differences between that minority and the yeshiva world are far less than I’ve described. He influences people who are interested in learning and who have inspired themselves to transcend the world they come from, but the MO world is still pretty much the same as it would be without him and rabbi shechter. Unfortunately, they have not accomplished much in changing MO or even YU, as YU has grown increasingly polarized between the handful of people who take yiddishkeit seriously and the rest who are barely religious. Growing up I had heard of rabbi shechter and heard him speak a couple of times, but he had zero influence on me and my family.
If everyone in MO were like him and rabbi willig, the taanos list I wrote would be much shorter.
DaMoshe-
“So too people who grow up in the yeshiva world and have things kept hidden from them, such as Internet access, interacting innocently with the opposite gender, and other things. MO teaches people how to deal with these things properly. When yeshivish people are exposed to it (and they are at some point), many of them don’t know how to deal with it, and they are overwhelmed.”This is so ridiculous, false, insane and bizzare I had to do a double take to see if you really wrote it. Either you never met someone from the “yeshiva world” or you just wanted to test your skills at comedy.
How about this, you use that bizzare description as the yeshiva world standard, and I’ll take my pregnant 12th grade neighbor as the typical MO description.😑
When it comes to things like pareve secular culture, there is an argument for demystification; that small doses will prevent the development of a desire to have it – but that would be limited to children’s books, dr seuss for instance….but that category is becoming more and more closed off, as modern day writers are bent on explosing children to toe’vah. I don’t particularly agree with that approach in the first place, but I understand those that do – rav hirsch advocated it directly and explicitly for that reasn in his time. He spoke only of secular literature; not vocalized music and definitely not interaction between genders.
I think that a lot of the confusion and discussion can be cleared up by emphasizing that Modern Orthodoxy is an actual movement with a set of ideals and some (albeit unofficial) leadership and institutions. There are plenty of MO high schools that separate the genders and plenty of places and Rabbonim who would never dream of giving a shiur comparing “Murder in the Cathedral” to Koheles. But the fact remains that some of the biggest MO institutions and figures endorse those that do. So it’s fair to criticize MO by pointing out that a lot of institutions under the MO banner act in way contrary to the Torah with implicit approval by those “Modern Orthodox machmir” people.
Regarding women learning Gemara – there is a great article from R’ Chaim Jachter entitled “Are Women Permitted to Study Gemara”, where he lays out the sources on both sides. He has plenty of sources that say it’s perfectly muttar for women to learn Gemara.
So AviraDeArah, it is hardly an “uncontested” halachah.Since multiple MO defenders are defending it on the grounds that it should be viewed as, in many instances, as a “kiruv” system where it practices b’dieved (or even b’dieved b’dieved or even less) policies, okay that might be a legitimate defense depending on the circumstances. BUT, if so, then don’t thereafter attempt to portray Modern Orthodoxy as equal to those practicing traditional Orthodoxy, Torah Jews who don’t seek to put a modern before their Orthodoxy.
Damoshe – gemara, rif, rambam, rosh, tur, beis yosef, shu”a, nosei keilim say it’s assur. Some achronim say that individual women who are on a high level are allowed to. It’s a very, very simple straight forward sugya. Rav Moshe Feinstein has a teshuva where he says that he shouldn’t have to even write such a teshuva because you can’t get much simpler.
I looked up the article – he quotes not a single source that says that learning gemara is permitted. Not one. He starts out by quoting the same sources that I mentioned, and a few more, snd says “it seems that it’s assur”, then continues to explain the bais yaakov movement and the chidush of the chofetz chaim that learning torah nowadays is allowed because the alternative is going off the derech, and that the Jewish home no longer provides adequate Jewish education for women.
He omits in his quote the rambam’s very, very crystal clear distinction between torah shebichsav and Torah she baal peh. The rambam says that the former is bedieved and the latter is assur gamur.
Jachter continues to then deflect and hint out that only the satmar rov qualified the chofetz chaims heter to apply only to tanach and halacha. That is an insidious tactic – first ignore the rambam’s distinction, and then attribute it to the satmar rov and therefore dismiss it because “that’s just satmar”
His other sources are just rabbi yoshe ber’s grandson trying to justify what his grandfather did with attempts at avoiding the clear halacha
He mentions what I said about exceptional women, and he says that some say that a woman may learn gemara on her own – that might be true according to some, since the gemara speaks of teaching, not learning. The rambam however would not hold of it.
This was very helpful for me, it shows the lengths of intellectual dishonesty that has free reign.
You make it sound like he’s saying, well, some rishonim and achronim hold it’s ok, and some hold it’s assur, so we’ll just pasken like those”
All he said was that the controversial rov associated with MO did it, and so did his brother and grandson…. shkoyach.
DaMoshe, you haven’t explained how the RCA allowed apikorsus Avi Weiss to remain a rabbinic member of the RCA long after he established the non-Orthodox OO movements with all its anti-Torah deviancies. The RCA never booted him and kept him as a member for decades, until Mr. Weiss himself decided not to renew his membership merely a few short years ago. The RCA was more than happy to keep him as one of their ” rabbis” until then. And the RCA still has another OO/YCT rabbinic member in their rosters.
At the risk of wasting my time I’d like to make 3 points.
1. Love love love for all Jews doesn’t mean that wrongdoing is ok or that errors in Halacha and Shitta are ok. It means we love those who commit those Chattaim no matter what. Doesn’t mean we can’t or shouldn’t focus on something wrong. The twaddle about how if everyone would only love each other more wonderful things would happen is nice, but doesn’t address most of the actual points Avira made.
2. There’s a fundamental difference between human weakness and error and a philosophy that condones such. For example :(this is a MASHOL!). Every single one of us has to improve in Shmura Halashon , Bittul Torah, Tefilla . Creating a philosophy and SYSTEM that would say that Lashon Haro is ok on Tuesdays, Fridays, and Sundays , or that it’s ok to have “Days off “ from Davening is Kefira. Please apply the Mashol intelligently.
3. Addressing very specific points with generalities about divisiveness and Ahavas Yisroel; the importance of respecting others Minhagim , and the various weaknesses in the Yeshiva system is illogical and doesn’t talk to the point. Saying that there are people within the MO system that don’t exhibit these endemic flaws , or who learn a lot and have good middos doesn’t answer the issue either. The incredibly painful point that Avira has put forth is that Modern Orthodoxy has developed a system and philosophy that generally contains elements that are counter to the Torah. Whether there’s any point of this discussion here, or if the coffee too. For that matter , is another question.
I’ll stop here
9. The minchas chinuch,( ill look it up imyh where) says that goyim are Chayav misa for not enacting proper courts to carry lut the other 6. The 7 mitzvos, which include homosexuality, are not chukim..the rishonim say that they are all understandable and goyim who did not receive a Torah are expected to believe in a God who demands these rational minimum requirements. Goyim are obligated to enact a beis din to carry out the other 6 laws, and since they’re all capital offenses, they must enforce a death penalty on any of them. I don’t think your drush has any relevance here; Hashem brought the mabul becsuse of goyim writing kesubos from men to other men; it’s something very simple, and the fact that MO circles even discuss the possibility of goyim allowing same sex marriage is appalling. Leskaen olam bemalchus shakai, our job is to create the world in the kingship of Hashem by having his will manifested and enforced.
A lot of people shouldn’t consider themselves orthodox; but they do. there are entire orthodox LGBT and feminist organizations.
——10. I don’t know about admiration as much as Hakaras HaTov or learning lessons from them. Take Moshe Dayan, for example. A Menuval? Yes, but Jewry owes him a great debt of gratitude: if not for him, we would not have access to Mearas HaMachpeila, the Kosel, Har HaBayis, etc. In terms of learning lessons: try Steven Covey. A Goy gamur? Yeah, but a Yashar person, who tries to lead his life in an ethical manner (one of my Rabeim called The Seven Habits “The Mesilas Yeshorim for Goyim”).
—Ever hear of an MO house in Israel with pictures of hertzl on the walll? I have. Ever hear the glowing praise heaped on golda Meir, while she said that she can take care of “the charedi problem” “in one day with the army” (yes she did say that)? MO has a loving protrail of zionist leaders and before the State, we had access to the kosel…and you know what? There was no problem of Women of the wall, or reform trying to disgrace its hallowed place with their filth.
MO revels in stories of shimon Perez and others as some sort of friend, they’re called “heros” and their books are available in jewish book stores.
——–11. See above, 6. It’s not adding, but rather applying. Judaism attributes value to the feminine, but what is the Torah’s view on how that effects how we think about women in the modern age?
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The Torah should be the sole source of how we view anything, including women. Rabbi yoshe ber Soloveitchik famously said that the way chazal talk about female psychology, tav lemaysav tan du etc…is a metaphysical reality and a constant. I wish MO would follow the person they call their leader, but sadly most do not. Mostl think that today’s women are different and enlightened. They can learn gemara because they’re so much more educated and smarter, etc..
—-12. See whoever-said-it’s comment about the difference between the state and the land. The state bears supporting because it protects Jewish lives. If not for the state/army, millions of Jews would be fair game to Arabs.
—-It wouldn’t need to save jewish lives if it wasn’t made to begin with. A better solution would be to let the USA take over as a territory; it would serve america’s foreign policy interests, and they would protect the jews living there and not perpetuate the chilul hashem that the state creates every day
6. As mentioned in point 3, comparing is very different than equating. But now we’re talking about applying. If one subscribes to the belief that Torah is the guidebook HKBH gave us to lead life, of course this book is going to have something to say on everything, and if something isn’t clear, then it is the believer’s Achrayus to try to figure out what the Torah viewpoint is. Once again, Machlokes in this context is okay, but not hatred against a person based on the viewpoint he/she subscribes to. So “adding” self-determinism or emphasis on leisure to the Torah doesn’t really make sense, as the Torah already has something to say about it. It’s just a matter of figuring out what and why. Regarding allowing secular concepts to influence Halachic decision making, they don’t. Feminism will never change Halacha. Ever. Neither will Self-determinism, or any other “secular” concept. You can ask @DBS to clarify Rav Willig’s view on this as well: he is unequivocally opposed to postmodernism and all it’s philosophical ideas, for the stated reason that post modernism does not believe in objective reality, whereas Judaism does. For example, the Torah was given to Moshe Rabeinu on Har Sinai by HKBH. Period. Full stop. That is the end of the story, no debate neccesary; no saying “oh, only some of it was given at Sinai”, or “nah, HKBH didn’t really mean to Aser x or y thing”.
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What I’m referring to is, for example, an MO rabbi bending over backwards to allow for the sake of vacation, dubious kashrus, lack of minyan, or going to Hawaii where there’s s safek chilul shabbos. Or allowing movies, secular books and music because “people need to relax”, even though they are forbidden by at least 2 mitzvos asei, 2 lo saaseh, and several divrei kabalah… easiest of which are al tifnu, lo sasuru, ahavas hashem, moshav leitzim and others mentioned in shulchan arcuh OC 317( i think… it’s the siman where he talks about daber davar issues)
—-7. I don’t think this is true either. When I first read George Orwell’s 1984 in 10th grade, I didn’t even know that there were inappropriate scenes in the book, as the school had forbidden them from being taught. Any TV show or movie that I wanted to watch had to be cleared with my parents first. AS mentioned above in no. 1, Rabeim try incredibly hard to wean their Talmidim off of their phones and to have filters installed on them. And yes, it is irresponsible of parents anywhere in any community to not filter their children’s devices. There are indeed standards. They may be lower than in other communities, but they do exist.
—–Allowing parents to decide what movies are “kosher” is worse than allowing people to decide what food is kosher just by reading thr ingredients. Are parents experts in what the Torah demands for standards of kedushah? Do you realize what one inappropriate joke or discussion in a movie does to a child(or adult)?
The yeshivos banned TV and movies because the gedolei yisroel understood how harmful they are. One who watches a movie is in a passive, enjoyment mode; he is taking in the entire goyishe world and the perspective of whichever goy he is allowing to direct his thoughts… it’s in that way that movies are far worse than books.8. Regarding the beginning: Darkei Shalom. If Jews did not stand up for Black people if they are oppressed, how can we expect them to stand up for us if we’re oppressed? And how can we expect government officials to not percieve us as being incredibly selfish if we show we do not care? Regarding the second part, about driving hybrids: If that’s how a person decides to do their Hishtadlus, all power (lol) to them. That doesn’t mean they deny HKBH is in the driver’s seat (lol again)
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We don’t expect them to stand up for us – because they don’t. Their leaders have been among the worst anti semites, including Al sharpton, jesse Jackson, and Louis Farrakhan. Rav yaakov kamenetzky famously said that alligning ourselves with their cause was a big mistake, because zey villen arois nemmen der klalah fun bnei cham; he said this in camp ohr shraga in front of hundreds.
There is a certain measure of hishtadlus involved in mitigating anti semitism; that crosses the line though, when we equate others’ suffering to our own and think that the racism itself is the cause. Re, climate change – we believe firmly that Hashem will cause suffering and catastrophe because He decrees so, be it as a punishment or whatever else. To think that we are destroying the world in any other way besides our sinfulness is bordering on kefirah. Imagine if before the mabul, goyim would say that the flood is coming because of cow’s flatulence. Then Noach would have all his cows and tell people the truth while building his teyva
Should he get rid of his cows so as not to look irresponsible in the eyes of the idiots and kofrim?
—-“Mainstream” MO means different things to you and I. To you, it’s basically rabbi shechter and rabbi willig. To me, it’s the 95% of barely frum people who call themselves such and the 90% of RCA rabbis who have fallen prey to many of the taanos I mentioned.
2. In what context would Rabbi Lamm call anyone a caveman?
—–He referred to the yeshiva world as cavemen; he knew exactly what he was saying. He felt enlightened and smarter than jews who only learn Torah and didn’t go to college. He also called conservatism “valid”, then backpedalled and gave a whole shiur on the philosophical meaning of valid…he knew what he was saying.
3. Equating is very different than comparing.
——Many MO rabbis, including norman lamm, have said this. Equating the two was a step above the maskilim who loved secular wisdom more than Torah. So the quasi maskilim in YU, including dr belkin and Bernard revel, said simply that they’re equal. What goes on in gush in their reckless “parshanut” is also haskalah-oriented. To their credit, rabbi willig and rabbi shechter do not seem at all to be using academic, haskalah methods in theit torah studies and psak, aside from using nationalism to justify deaths on the part of the latter. As an aside, I don’t see why people who continuously say that rabbis are not infallible and that you can argue with them suddenly run to defend one of theirs from criticism. Is it only ok to accuse, chas veshalom, the brisker rov of having OCD and dismissing some of his psakim(as heard from an MO rabbi) but not ok to say that rabbi shechtets personal nationalism influenced him to err in halacha?
4. “This is not mainstream either. Just to be clear, someone following a Kula because they were taught to follow a Kula is unlikely to know it’s a Kula, just like if one were to be raised in a world of Chumra, one could easily confuse Chumra and the standard Halacha. It’s quite difficult to run headlong into a Kula if you’re unaware it’s a Kula. And if it’s a Kula, although it may not be ideal, it doesn’t make it wrong, the same way that other people rely on Kulos. In terms of Chumros regarding Ticheiles, that’s a whole ‘nother can of worms. Certainly a majority of the Modern Orthodox world does not agree with Rav Schachter (as @DBS can tell you, Rav Willig is very vocally opposed). ”
——If you want to see MO style “psak”, read shu”t bnei bonim. He’s a gush type posek; unfortunately he lost relatives in a terror attack a few years back. The whole sefer is him picking out a random maikil shita and making it viable in the face of overwhelming opposition.
I was not referring to rabbi shechter’s kashrus psakim. He follows standard halachik jurisprudence. After Rav belsky’s petirah, I still eat OU for the most part. Most of my diatribe doesn’t apply to him. Re techeles – my point is that senior rabbis such as rabbi shechter spend undue time pressing techeles and avoid the 3 chamuros that his constituents are invovled in routinely and communally.
5. “Regarding feminism, I don’t think that is mainstream either. The MO world is opposed to female rabbis (as @DBS could tell you, Rabbi Willig is very VERY vocally opposed to this [it’s practically in his backyard! {he lives in Riverdale}]). If they weren’t, they would jump ship to the OO. In terms of the latter part of this one, please define your terms: What do you define as meta-halacha?”
——–Feminism has many forms, but firstly there are a lot…i mean, a LOT of RCA rabbis who want to ordain women, the “bnei bonim” guy included. The fact that they’re held back by prominent figures such as rav gedalya dov schwartz, rabbi shechter and rabbi willig, is changing. Just read “the commentator” to see what MO youth and future rabbis want. What’s considered OO now will be mainstream MO within 10 years, and people like you, who seem relatively level-headed, will find a home in a place like Ner Yisroel or other college-friendly yeshivos kedoshos. The very fact that while in the yeshiva world, no rabbid would think of such a thing, and in the MO world, senior rabbis need to reign in the younger ones and come out with proclamations… speaks volumes.
As to other forms of feminism; it’s being taught in high school, stern college…the ideals of careerism, dismissal of gender roles as outdated, believing that women are better now than they were in Europe when their life consisted of piety and family duties, as well as the “we can do it too” of learning gemara…the growing movement to do things like wear tefilin, cast off head coverings because they’re “oppressive”, rethink chazal as chas veshalom being a “male perspective”…all this is discussed in YU and common place in MO circles. The development of “yoatzot” in the spirit of “by women for women”, all of this and plenty more are mainstream.
Meta halacha is letting other considerations besides what people need for legitimate tzrochim and the crucible of halacha to weigh in on how a psak should be made. Examples of which would be the psak of one MO rabbi that abortions are ok for a woman to be able to put herself through college
I am writing specifically about the YI of PP whose Rabbi SR was legendary as both a politician and a spiritual leader. The unfortunate demise of the shul and the 25 others in the area is over simplified by the cliche of dwindling membership. The representation that a merger solved anyone’s membership problem is quite infantile . On one hand you write that even small communities have Yeshivas למיניהם. But PP remains unfortunately an עיר הנידחת. The fall of the vast YI movement was discussed by the LR who saw it happening. YI is שומר שבת.You can’t be an officer otherwise. That is a great קידוש השם on paper. I encourage each group to be proud of their past and plan a bright future. The criticisms are basic silliness. שבת שלום
From rabbi willig – courtesy of the commentator:
“the inclusion of Talmud in curricula for all women in Modern Orthodox schools needs to be reevaluated. While the gedolim of the twentieth century saw Torah study to be a way to keep women close to our mesorah, an egalitarian attitude has colored some women’s study of Talmud and led them to embrace and advocate egalitarian ideas and practices which are unacceptable to those very gedolim.”
“We must obey all of Hashem’s laws, especially those that others trample upon,” Rabbi Willig wrote. He writes that one of the sources of rampant transgressions among many in the Modern Orthodox community is due to blurred lines in gender roles as they concern religious practice. He talks about how many may not like the message that he is spreading, and that issues such as gender equality may lead to a “schism” among Orthodox Judaism.
“This phenomenon (feminism within orthodoxy) may lead to a schism within Orthodoxy.Rabbi willig acknowledges that there is widespread sinfulness in MO on a communal level, why can’t the rest of you?
According to him, perhaps if MO schools would have followed the halacha and not taught gemara, we wouldn’t be in this situation now.
Compare that to president richard joel of YU :
President Richard Joel said, “there’s no limit to what women can do and learn. This is a university that honors thought, even when there is profound disagreement about that thought. Universities should be safe spaces where its scholars and faculty can express themselves civilly and be free to disagree. Yeshiva University has to honor that, even as it says clearly that statements of faculty, whether religious or secular, are statements of their own, and in no way represent the policies of the university. The president speaks for the University. Within halacha, there should be no limits to what women can learn and achieve.”
….haskalah through and through. He thinks he knows halacha tok, that halacha never limits what one can learn….he would do well to actually learn somr halacha. He would say the same thing about learning apikorsus, since you can’t limit what one can learn and think….this is the PRESIDENT of your institution!!! Wake up!
Have we yet had a discussion advocating Ahavas Yisroel by those in YU/the MO community for those in the Chareidi community?
“Rabbi willig acknowledges that there is widespread sinfulness in MO on a communal level, why can’t the rest of you??”
Perhaps its because many of us reject the mindless notion that if we stopped educating bnos yisroel and locked them at home to cook and make babies, the geulah would be immediate and most of you (except for those davening in YIs or sending their kids to Ramaz) would heading to EY for z’man moishiach. The apikorsus you project on to the MO tzibur sounds like youwould prefer to impose what we are hearing for the past week or so from the women of Afghanistan who are terrified that their lives are about to revert to the horrors of the Taliban era circa 1980-2001.
GH- sorry, but that was a pretty dumb response
GH – there it is….i was waiting for someone to just dismiss all criticism of MO as being Taliban/fanatical zealots…. you extremists with your tanach and shulchan aruch….you all belong in saudi Arabia!
It’s that exact attitude that’s endemic in MO, where if you simply want to keep normative halacha and hashkofa, you’re compared to the taliban.
Do you think that the yeshiva world, even in its most right wing element “locks women up” to have babies and cook? If you think that, you’d do yourself well to stop watching Netflix and reading false blogs and actually spend time in Lakewood, monsey etc
I have no idea what’s holding back the geulah; i am a simple jew who is upset at simple violations of Torah, and if the only answers I get are “eww, you’re taliban” or other insults, then it further proves my point. Even if the taliban happened to be correct about something, does that mean it’s automatically false?
I’ll admit my response is emotional; but it’s based on facts; your response is emotional and based on feelings alone, in an attempt to deflect legitimate criticism when we were invited.to levy it, you dismiss all of it by a wave of a hand – if you’re not ready for a serious conversation, then don’t engage, but don’t try to bring a discussion of logic and reason down to an ad hominem level.
Have we yet had a discussion advocating Ahavas Yisroel by those in YU/the MO community for those in the Chareidi community?
That would be a nice start, frankly this thread serves no purpose other then allowing a former MO gripe about the way he was raised in a similar manner to the footstep people gripping about being raised frum.
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