July 14, 2011 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #597982NaturalSelectionMember
I was wondering if anyone knows of any good answers to a problem that might arise from the concept of Ain Shliach L’Davar Avera. To use the most extreme example, and thus the idea will apply for all lesser cases, how can we say that Hitler murdered 6 million Jews? He didn’t fire a shot – he just gave orders. Everyone under him had free will and thus the duty to resist, even under pain of death. So although he is guilty of countless sins, no doubt, according to Ain Shliach he hasn’t murdered anyone!?! Any source-based solutions, or well thought out solutions are appreciated! (i.e. no hand waving please) ThanksJuly 14, 2011 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #808252DroidMember
There only culpable min hashmayim, not in beis din l’matah.July 14, 2011 11:34 pm at 11:34 pm #808253apushatayidParticipant
1: Did Paroh kill any jews personally? Haman?
2: Is hitler y”sh evil because he killed jews or because he preached a certain hatred towards jews?
3: Would hitler y”sh be any less an evil person if the german population resisted him?
4: Harbei shluchim lamakom. He didnt have to volunteer for the job (the Rambam says something very similar regarding mitrayim).July 15, 2011 12:02 am at 12:02 am #808254deiyezoogerMember
The concept of ein shliach lidvar aveirah is only in beis din. (Patur b’dini adam v’cheiyov b’dini shameiyim)July 15, 2011 1:15 am at 1:15 am #808255NaturalSelectionMember
Ok – so it’s specific to beis din. That explains it. Thank you all kindly.July 25, 2011 11:50 pm at 11:50 pm #808257yitayningwutParticipant
It might be possible that even in Beis Din we would be able to be ????? Hitler, and I’ll explain.
The Gemara (Bava Metzia 10b) says that a person who steals via his ???? ??? is considered a regular ganav, even if we say that the courtyard is considered the person’s shliach. Fregt the gemara – Ayy ??? ???? ???? ?????!?! There are two answers given: 1) The only time we say ??? ???? ???? ????? is when the shliach is also not allowed to do it. Here, the courtyard has no chiyuvim, so the “????” is chayav. 2) The only time we say ??? ???? ???? ????? is when the shliach has a choice. Here, the courtyard has no choice.
Tosafos (?”? ?? ??? ?? ????) seems clear that according to answer #2 we don’t limit this halacha to a courtyard which absolutely has no choice – i.e. it isn’t capable of saying I’m not going to do this, rather we even apply it to a case where a person is forced into something against his will – e.g. if I put a gun to your head and say damage this object I will be considered the mazik through ??????.
Accordingly, one could say that since every soldier is subservient to the commander-in-chief, and one who disobeys his orders would receive serious punishment or even death, this is called ??? ????, and we will say ?? ???? ???? ?????.
The reason why I only say it might be possible, and not definitely, is due to two considerations: 1) Apparently the Rema paskens like the first answer. See the long Shach there. 2) It is questionable if a non-Jew can make a ???? at all. (We know from ??? ?? ??? that a non-Jew doesn’t work as a ???? for a Jew, but for a non-Jew there is lots to klerr.)
However, once we’ve mentioned that we’re dealing with a goy, it might be even more pashut that Beis Din will convict him. This is because the Rambam (Melachim 9:4) is clear that a non-Jew who murders is chyav even if it is just a grama, ?”?.
And finally, the others are certainly correct in saying that even if Beis Din cannot be ????? him he is certainly ???? ???? ?? ????. Hashem knows what each person deserves and is fair and just.September 11, 2011 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #808258sam4321Participant
There is a shita that explains ain shliach ldvar aveira is on by jews.Why was Moav punished(cant marry jews) if Bilam was the one who cursed? Marafsin igri brings down that by goyim yaish shliach ldvar avaira.September 11, 2011 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #808259TumsMember
By goyim (unlike yidden) even the thought of planning to do an aveira that they never did, they are culpable for it.September 11, 2011 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #808260HealthParticipant
Tums – I have a proof -The Baal Hagada says Arami Oived Ovi (Avi). We know that he didn’t actually kill Yaakov Avinu, but it’s considered as he did, because he wanted to!September 12, 2011 1:20 am at 1:20 am #808261HaLeiViParticipant
I don’t think the Taana on these Resho’im is through Hilchos Shlichus. Also, I recall that by a king it is considered that he killed. That is why it was as if Dovid Hamelech killed Uria.
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