January 2, 2011 5:15 am at 5:15 am #723668real-briskerMember
aries – What type of crowd are you dealing with? I am still convinced this is not nogayah to the litvishe crowd.January 2, 2011 5:17 am at 5:17 am #723669WolfishMusingsParticipant
A state prohibition on alcoholic consumption by minors which interferes with a sacramental requirement of the minor’s religion would be unconstitutional under the New York State and US constitutions, regardless of any provisions or lack of exemptions in the statutes.
I’m not certain of that. Freedom of religion does not equal an absolute right to practice. I’m fairly certain that you could not claim “freedom of religion” to strike down laws against murder if you were to kill an Amaleki. I’m also quite sure that the current fundamentalist branches of the LDS church cannot use “freedom of religion” to get out of polygamy charges.
UPDATE: From the Wikipedia page on Freedom of Religion in the United States (emphasis mine):
The “Free Exercise Clause” states that Congress can not “prohibit the free exercise” of religious practices. The Supreme Court of the United States has consistently held, however, that the right to free exercise of religion is not absolute. For example, in the 1800s, some of the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints traditionally practiced polygamy, yet in Reynolds v. United States (1879), the Supreme Court upheld the criminal conviction of one of these members under a federal law banning polygamy. The Court reasoned that to do otherwise would set precedent for a full range of religious beliefs including those as extreme as human sacrifice. The Court stated that “Laws are made for the government of actions, and while they cannot interfere with mere religious belief and opinions, they may with practices.” For example, if one were part of a religion that believed in vampirism, the First Amendment would protect one’s belief in vampirism, but not the practice. This principle has similarly been applied to those attempting to claim religious exemptions for smoking cannabis or, as in the case of Employment Division v. Smith (1990), the use of the hallucinogen peyote. Currently, peyote and ayahuasca are allowed by legal precedent if used in a religious ceremony; though cannabis is not.January 2, 2011 5:50 am at 5:50 am #723670
I’m also quite sure that the current fundamentalist branches of the LDS church cannot use “freedom of religion” to get out of polygamy charges.
The FLDS has practiced polygamy for over a hundred years, and still do so openly without prosecution. The authorities can’t interfere with a religious marriage, due to freedom of religion, even if plural. They purposefully do not obtain multiple civil marriages.January 2, 2011 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm #723671lesschumrasParticipant
In NY it’s illeagal to have a religious marraaige without a civil marraigeJanuary 2, 2011 12:48 pm at 12:48 pm #723672WolfishMusingsParticipant
.The FLDS has practiced polygamy for over a hundred years, and still do so openly without prosecution. The authorities can’t interfere with a religious marriage, due to freedom of religion, even if plural. They purposefully do not obtain multiple civil marriages.
Well, now you’re getting into technicalities, because the state doesn’t consider it a marriage unless there is a civil marriage. A religious marriage, according to the state, is no marriage (although it may become one after a while in states that recognize common-law marriage). Shacking up with a girlfriend (even if you call her another wife), even if you’re already married, is not a crime. If they would obtain a second marriage license, then they very well might be charged with bigamy.
But states sometimes do prosecute bigamy cases when a second (or later) civil marriage is enacted. In fact, is has happened at least twice in the past month (see links below). I don’t know if the motivation in either case was religious, but even if it is, it is still not a defense.
In the end, it doesn’t even matter, as I’ve already shown above that freedom of religion does not mean an absolute freedom to practice said religion.
The WolfJanuary 2, 2011 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #723673
In NY it’s illeagal to have a religious marraaige without a civil marraige
Incorrect.January 2, 2011 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #723674aries2756Participant
RB, it has nothing to do with being litvish, chasidish, mo, or anything. Alcohol is poison for minor children and for adults who have a tendency for the disease. Until a “body and brain” is fully matured alcohol is a very dangerous drug and it can affect the development of the child even to the point of being lethal. It is not something to be taken lightly nor to joke around about. It wasn’t funny in our neighborhood (and I am sure in others) when Dr. “W” was called in b’shtika Friday night because the other kids involved didn’t want a whole blow up, but they did have the common sense to at least run to his house and get him, when these young kids of 15 and 16 went back to shul for ONEG and got themselves drunk. One passed out and could not be revived. They realized that something was seriously wrong with him so they ran to Dr. W, who when he got there immediately called other members of Hatzolah and transported him high level emergency to the hospital. The child was diagnosed with alcohol poisoning which began shutting down his organs. Had the kids just left him there to “sleep it off” he would have been dead within a few hours.
It was such an eye opener that the shuls here went dry, grape juice only. WE rarely have wine at kidushim in shul. That is how seriously WE are taking it.
I can’t force anyone to understand what I am saying. You are going to choose to believe what you want to believe. I can tell you stories one after another, how I got called because a 15 year old was throwing up after consuming beer and mashke and he told his friends to call me because he was afraid to call is own parents. When I got there I had no choice but to call Hatzolah and have them call his father. They spent the night in the emergency room. It is a problem across the board whether they are rebellious kids or not as in the story with Dr. W. When you introduce alcohol to kids at any age YOU can never know how it will effect them. Will they enjoy the buzz, will they like the burn. Will they want more. Will their friends egg them on. Will they discuss it with their friends. Will they listen to their parents, will they sneak it behind their backs. Will they go from house to house when there is a shalom zachor and help themselves.
If you tell them that it is against the law and they are not allowed till a certain age, just like driving and other things that come with age, then they have to learn to deal with it. And you still pray that they will listen. If you tell them that it is dangerous for them because their bodies are still developing and it can have a serious effect on them, that is even better. Give them the facts and let them know the truth. But don’t be hypocritical. Be a good role mode.
RB, there is nothing more I can say. Again you didn’t relate what your father the Hatzolah member has to say about all this. I know what Hatzola’s view as an organization is on this subject. I would like to know what your father says their view is.January 2, 2011 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #723675aries2756Participant
Whether marriage is legal or illegal is off the topic. However, a religious marriage can never be illegal. What I think you are trying to say is that it is NOT recognized in the secular world. So if you ONLY have a religious marriage and do not get a marriage certificate you are not recognized as a married couple for any legal reasons such as insurance, next of kin, medical decisions, etc.
Rav Moshe z”tl was very adamant about getting a marriage certificate and he himself took care of mailing it in. He was our mesader kiddushin, and he would not shtel a chupah without it.January 2, 2011 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #723676
TMB – pay attention to the news. The LDS leadership outlawed polygamy so that Utah could be admitted to the Union as a state. They practice this. The fundamentalist groups are constantly in trouble. Many of them are cults and do things like force 14-year-old girls into marriage with 50 year old men. A lot of their leaders end up in jail.
The topic here is adults giving alcohol to kids. Let’s stick to it. And let’s not bring in “facts” which are actually fantasies.January 2, 2011 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #723677real-briskerMember
aries – I am not arguing with you whether there is a problem with kids/adults getting drunk for no reason. All my point is, that not allowing kids to have wine at kiddush, or not allowing bouchrim from have a lchaim at the seudah, is not what will prevent them from going free on thier own. I dont think these few kids that go on their own and intoxicate themselves is because thier parents let the have a spoonful of wine by kiddush, cause if that was the cause you would have a lot more. And what makes you think that by not allowing them to have wine at kiddush will stop them from sneaking? I strongly think that these kids would go on thier own regardless of what they were taught. This that I brought in the fact that my father is a hatzolh member is just to point out that even though he has gone on pently of such calls , It didnt change the fact that he allowed us to have wine by kiddush, and a lchaim. Why, because he taught us when, and how alchohal should be used.January 2, 2011 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #723678
Midwest – I specifically referred to the FLDS. They still openly practice it.January 2, 2011 11:14 pm at 11:14 pm #723679
TMB – I still don’t see what non-Jewish marriage practices (and for the US pretty weird ones at that) have to do with Yidden giving or not giving alcohol to underage children. As far as I can see, there are two separate issues:
1) Is it legal? In most states giving alcohol to someone underage who is not your child is illegal. Since dina d’malchusa dina, we therefore can’t do it.
2) Is it advisable? As many posters have pointed out, alcohol is a potential hand grenade for a teenager. Some people may know their own children well and feel that a small amount won’t hurt. Certainly a non-parent like a Rebbe shouldn’t have that choice. One factor that has only recently been shown by research – the parts of the human brain that deal with judgment and impulse control don’t mature until the person is in their late teens, even early twenties. So not only may a teenager not be able to judge whether/how to drink, it could also in excess interfere with the brain’s functional development.
And, of course, a teen who drinks alcohol is much more likely to try other “good stuff” like marijuana and cocaine.
So what do we need it for? When I was a kid grape juice and soda pop were fine. What’s changed?January 3, 2011 12:22 am at 12:22 am #723680
A pedestrian jaywalking or crossing the street on when the light is red (with no cars for miles in sight) is also against dina d’malchusa, the same way giving someone a bronfun glezel of schnaps might be according to some shittas of the law.January 3, 2011 5:19 am at 5:19 am #723681
TMB – bad example. If there are no cars in sight then there is no safek of danger.
When you give alcohol to a kid you are running a known risk of harming that child. We’re not talking “shittas of the law.” We’re talking about potential danger.
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